Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 127 (8774 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 07-21-2017 12:41 PM
380 online now:
DrJones*, JonF, NoNukes, PaulK, ringo, Tangle, Tanypteryx, Taq, xongsmith (9 members, 371 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Tom Larkin
Upcoming Birthdays: anglagard
Post Volume:
Total: 814,334 Year: 18,940/21,208 Month: 1,699/3,111 Week: 494/707 Day: 70/120 Hour: 1/15

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
6162
63
64656667Next
Author Topic:   Atheism Cannot Rationally Explain Morals.
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18774
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 931 of 1001 (807914)
05-06-2017 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 930 by Stile
05-06-2017 4:45 PM


Re: Quibbles the quibbler
Is it necessarily "...for the preservation of the group?"

Maybe morals are simply behaviours that are considered good.

(1) "considered good" by who? The individual or the group?

(2) when I look at the structure of morals it is about interactions with others: don't steal, don't murder, don't covet your neighbors spouse, ... let others pursue happiness if it harms no one .... etc

(3) who enforces morals, the individual or the group?

Can you think of a moral that is for personal benefit?

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 930 by Stile, posted 05-06-2017 4:45 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 935 by ProtoTypical, posted 05-07-2017 7:06 PM RAZD has responded
 Message 951 by Stile, posted 05-08-2017 10:34 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6385
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.3


(5)
Message 932 of 1001 (807932)
05-07-2017 8:46 AM


How did Christians prevent WWII? They didn't!
I'm also trying to figure out what Hitler has to do with the topic. Hitler, who in real life history created the archetype for brutal, anithuman totalitarianism, consciously and deliberately murdered millions of people, and destroyed most of Europe in an incredibly destructive war.

All this despite growing up surrounded by Catholics, presumably teaching him about this incredible objective morality.

How do Christians prevent Hitler? Answer: they don't.

How do Christians stop Hitler? Answer: like everyone else, by carpet bombing his industrial base until he commits suicide in a bunker. Not, it seems, by proving the superiority of their incredible objective moral system.

Once again, certain conservative Christians need to judge other beliefs by standards they can't even meet.

Edited by Chiroptera, : Added subtitle.


Freedom is merely privilege extended, unless enjoyed by one and all. – Billy Bragg

Replies to this message:
 Message 933 by Davidjay, posted 05-07-2017 10:39 AM Chiroptera has responded

  
Davidjay
Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 933 of 1001 (807950)
05-07-2017 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 932 by Chiroptera
05-07-2017 8:46 AM


Re: How did Christians prevent WWII? They didn't!
Batpeople, the Lord directs time and nations and wars as they are prophesied and come because of the perfidity and evil of those that want more and more power. They are started by the power mongers, and the evil ONE to get the whole world under their control... as the Lord ordained and annointed and allows.

But the heathen blame the Lord rather than themselves and their leaders.

See and study sites like ..

http://www.threeworldwars.com/world-war-2/ww2.htm

And then

SEE and study

http://www.davidjayjordan.com/7KingdomsofMan.html

The 7th is getting together after the signing of the Coveant that stops the war, not WorldWar in the Mid East...... and then we proceed onward on the exact timeline til the Lord steps IN, and takes back His Earth for those who individually choose Him or have chosen HIM.

All planned in advance (as that is PROPHECY) and the heathen hate it when it means there is DESIGN to history and the present and the FUTURE. They want to think they are in control when they are not...and yet they blame and accuse the Lord of Lords.

Listen to them.


.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.

.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 932 by Chiroptera, posted 05-07-2017 8:46 AM Chiroptera has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 934 by Chiroptera, posted 05-07-2017 12:49 PM Davidjay has not yet responded

    
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6385
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 934 of 1001 (807967)
05-07-2017 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 933 by Davidjay
05-07-2017 10:39 AM


Re: How did Christians prevent WWII? They didn't!
But the heathen blame the Lord rather than themselves and their leaders.

Some might. Me, I'm not blaming anyone for anything. I'm pointing out to Dredge that whatever philosophical problems he thinks Hitler poses for the idea of subjective morality, he poses the same problems for the idea of objective morality.

Edited by Chiroptera, : Tried to make my point more clear.


Freedom is merely privilege extended, unless enjoyed by one and all. – Billy Bragg

This message is a reply to:
 Message 933 by Davidjay, posted 05-07-2017 10:39 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

  
ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1740
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 935 of 1001 (807988)
05-07-2017 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 931 by RAZD
05-06-2017 8:21 PM


Re: Quibbles the quibbler
Can you think of a moral that is for personal benefit?

I will just pop in out of the blue (not having followed the thread) and say that they are all for personal benefit. We practice and enforce moral conduct because we realize that doing so is directly beneficial to ourselves. Being part of a group is essential to human survival and maintaining the group and one's relationship to it are paramount.

All behaviour is driven by assessment of personal benefit.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 931 by RAZD, posted 05-06-2017 8:21 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 950 by RAZD, posted 05-08-2017 10:06 AM ProtoTypical has not yet responded
 Message 954 by Stile, posted 05-08-2017 10:47 AM ProtoTypical has not yet responded
 Message 964 by Dredge, posted 05-09-2017 3:38 AM ProtoTypical has not yet responded

  
evolutionfacts
Junior Member
Posts: 12
From: Long Beach, CA
Joined: 08-22-2010


Message 936 of 1001 (808003)
05-08-2017 1:11 AM


I think Sam Harris has long since put this one to bed.
    
Dredge
Member
Posts: 506
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 937 of 1001 (808010)
05-08-2017 2:44 AM
Reply to: Message 917 by vimesey
05-05-2017 1:51 PM


Re: Evolutionists can not explain morals
In post #901, I asked you a few questions pertaining to the relevance of proving morality, and you haven't attempted to answer any of them.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 917 by vimesey, posted 05-05-2017 1:51 PM vimesey has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 944 by vimesey, posted 05-08-2017 3:35 AM Dredge has not yet responded

    
Dredge
Member
Posts: 506
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 938 of 1001 (808011)
05-08-2017 2:47 AM
Reply to: Message 919 by Dr Adequate
05-05-2017 2:03 PM


I thank you for the Hitler quotes.  They certainly suggest he was some kind of creationist.  But who knows if he was being sincere or merely pandering to a theistic audience?  
This message is a reply to:
 Message 919 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-05-2017 2:03 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 952 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-08-2017 10:38 AM Dredge has not yet responded
 Message 956 by Chiroptera, posted 05-08-2017 10:58 AM Dredge has not yet responded

    
Dredge
Member
Posts: 506
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 939 of 1001 (808012)
05-08-2017 2:50 AM
Reply to: Message 922 by Tangle
05-05-2017 3:25 PM


Re: Let's start over.
Tangle writes:

As did the discoveries of geology and astrology ... they proved the errors of primitive, superstitious thinking.

 

... a small detail you seemed to have overlooked - you can't equate empirical evidence with the theory of Common Descent.  That's drawing a very long bow.  


This message is a reply to:
 Message 922 by Tangle, posted 05-05-2017 3:25 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 945 by Tangle, posted 05-08-2017 3:51 AM Dredge has not yet responded

    
Dredge
Member
Posts: 506
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 940 of 1001 (808013)
05-08-2017 2:54 AM
Reply to: Message 923 by Dr Adequate
05-05-2017 3:34 PM


Re: Let's start over.
Dr Adequate writes:

What do you think "ontological" means?


Ontology is word I made up and it relates to the philosophical study of the nature of being, becoming, existence or reality.
(Another word I made up that appeared in one of my posts is Psychomosis, which describes the transfer of thoughts from one person's brain to another person's brain, through the air.)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 923 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-05-2017 3:34 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 941 by NoNukes, posted 05-08-2017 3:00 AM Dredge has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9723
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 941 of 1001 (808015)
05-08-2017 3:00 AM
Reply to: Message 940 by Dredge
05-08-2017 2:54 AM


Re: Let's start over.
Ontology is word I made up and it relates to the philosophical study of the nature of being, becoming, existence or reality.

The dictionary claims that the word originated in the 18th century with essentially the same meaning you give. What am I missing with respect to your claim?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 940 by Dredge, posted 05-08-2017 2:54 AM Dredge has not yet responded

    
Dredge
Member
Posts: 506
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 942 of 1001 (808017)
05-08-2017 3:03 AM
Reply to: Message 913 by Chiroptera
05-05-2017 9:43 AM


Re: Evolutionists can not explain morals
In answer to your questions:
1. I don't know.
2. I don't know.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 913 by Chiroptera, posted 05-05-2017 9:43 AM Chiroptera has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 948 by Chiroptera, posted 05-08-2017 9:02 AM Dredge has not yet responded

    
Dredge
Member
Posts: 506
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 943 of 1001 (808022)
05-08-2017 3:29 AM
Reply to: Message 915 by ringo
05-05-2017 11:56 AM


Re: Evolutionists can not explain morals
Ringo writes:

Since situations vary from place to place and time to time, it's only natural that morals also vary.

Good point - just look at the situation where Hitler decided the morally correct solution was to murder 6 million Jews.  And also consider the Khmer Rouge, who accessed the situation and thought the right thing to do was to kill 5 millions Cambodians.   Evidently, morality can be whatever you want it to be; you just make it up as you go along.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 915 by ringo, posted 05-05-2017 11:56 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 946 by jar, posted 05-08-2017 7:13 AM Dredge has not yet responded
 Message 947 by Chiroptera, posted 05-08-2017 8:59 AM Dredge has not yet responded
 Message 949 by Tangle, posted 05-08-2017 9:35 AM Dredge has not yet responded
 Message 958 by ringo, posted 05-08-2017 12:02 PM Dredge has not yet responded

    
vimesey
Member
Posts: 877
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 944 of 1001 (808023)
05-08-2017 3:35 AM
Reply to: Message 937 by Dredge
05-08-2017 2:44 AM


Re: Evolutionists can not explain morals
Post 917 was an answer to all of your questions. Each one of your questions was "how do we determine which of the following moral positions is correct ?" My reply was that we are not stating that a moral position is correct. Each of your questions presents a straw man.

We arrive at our individual moralities, through a number of ways. Our societies reach consensuses as to those moralities, through mutual understanding, argument, debate and social change. The wider international community does the same amongst its constituent societies. That's how it works. There's no yardstick, no standard to measure "correctness" against - just various consensuses, subject to debate, argument, occasional conflict and above everything else, change.

You're asking me the equivalent of whether I think Sasquatch 's fur is black or brown; or whether his teeth are yellow or white; or whether he's got blue eyes or green. The thing is, I don't believe there's a Sasquatch.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 937 by Dredge, posted 05-08-2017 2:44 AM Dredge has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4872
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 945 of 1001 (808025)
05-08-2017 3:51 AM
Reply to: Message 939 by Dredge
05-08-2017 2:50 AM


Re: Let's start over.
quote:
a small detail you seemed to have overlooked - you can't equate empirical evidence with the theory of Common Descent.

Palaeontology is an empirical science using empirical evidence. Fossils.
Molecular genetics is an empirical science using empirical evidence. DNA

And why we're about it, you never got round to explaining why there is any similarity at all in the DNA of other apes and man.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 939 by Dredge, posted 05-08-2017 2:50 AM Dredge has not yet responded

  
RewPrev1
...
6162
63
64656667Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017