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Author Topic:   The Disgusting Berkeley Riots
Faith
Member
Posts: 25606
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 211 of 275 (801042)
03-02-2017 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by Genomicus
03-02-2017 9:00 PM


Re: the big picture
Lol. Cops aren't being killed because of the Black Lives Matter movement. You're not sympathetic to Black Lives Matter because you don't see racial injustice as much of a problem.

Could be. So convince me. Cop killings aren't going to convince me. Burning things and looting aren't going to convince me.

LOL? What's amusing about this?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Genomicus, posted 03-02-2017 9:00 PM Genomicus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by Genomicus, posted 03-02-2017 9:17 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Genomicus
Member
Posts: 844
Joined: 02-15-2012
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 212 of 275 (801043)
03-02-2017 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by Faith
03-02-2017 9:10 PM


Re: the big picture
The Black Lives Matter website states their position rather clearly. You can read where specifically blacks face racial injustice in society (scroll to the bottom of the page to "What Does #BlackLivesMatter Mean?"): blacklivesmatter.com/about/

There is a voluminous empirical literature supporting each of the contentions of the #BlackLivesMatter position; if you disagree with what's written there, you're free to explain exactly why.

Edit to answer this:

LOL? What's amusing about this?

"Lol" in this context is more sardonic than comedic, a trait one picks up after interacting with Trump supporters and the new POTUS' policies.

Edited by Genomicus, : No reason given.

Edited by Genomicus, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Faith, posted 03-02-2017 9:10 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7410
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(2)
Message 213 of 275 (801044)
03-02-2017 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by Faith
03-02-2017 8:36 PM


Re: the big picture
And there was that sad case of the kid with the toy gun. Cops may overreact from fear you know, which could explain the disparity in that video you posted between their treatment of the white guy with the gun and the black guy with the gun (I haven't watched it, do you think it's necessary?).

Yes, cops get scared of black guys more than they get scared of white guys. That is a problem. It's an intrinsic bias. It might not be solvable entirely but hopefully it can be mitigated through raising awareness, training etc. The video isn't necessary but I've watched hours of videos you posted and it is useful to understand the point being illustrated.

Why are black people more scary? Shouldn't we try to correct this. Even if only a bit?

And what if there is a trend of blacks tending to react threateningly to police intervention, is that taken into account in the disproportionate statistics?

Not exactly, no. The point is, even if that were true ,why is it true? Is it because they are sick of being constantly stopped and searched disproportionally to white people? That sometimes they get angry or seemingly aggressive at the injustice of a system that seems to target them because of their race - even if individuals are not racist, the system or culture seems to be - and this can make people angry. Anger is justified, but with armed scared cops - it can lead to bad situations. So why is it (black people disproportionally being angry or aggressive) happening, if it is happening? What are the root causes? How do we address them?

Is it poverty? Social injustice? Over-vigilance against their racial group? Poor educational opportunities? A combination of factors? Can we combat this?

How about the black community take some responsibility and deal with their own attitudes?

Ok, look, this is the kind of thing that is likely to raise people's backs. You should probably keep that in mind and try to word your points more cautiously or diplomatically.

For a start, plenty of black people are taking responsibility and encourage their community towards better relations with the police. Obama commented on it. He said a few things, in the few minutes of searching I was able to find him imploring

quote:
turn off the television sets and eradicate the slander that says a black youth with a book is acting white

that was 2004 in his keynote speech. Also I found an interview with Oprah:

quote:
We have to change attitudes. There's a strain of anti-intellectualism running in our community that we have to eliminate. I'm young enough to understand where that opposition culture, that rebellion against achievement, comes from.

Oprah: Where does it comes from?

Barack: Fear—at least for me and a lot of young African-Americans. There's a sense in which we feel that the only way to assert strength is to push away from a society that says we're not as good. It's like: Instead of trying to compete, I'm going to have my own thing, and my own thing may be the streets or rap music.

Oprah: Do you think we've lost the belief that we can succeed? I was talking with Skip Gates [Henry Louis Gates, scholar of African-American history and culture], and he was saying how ironic it is that our parents believed that their little nappy-headed boys and girls could grow up and be somebody if they worked twice as hard.

Barack: We no longer operate that way, but we should be working twice as hard, because we still have challenges and barriers other communities don't have.



Also from 2004.

But white folk have the numbers, they have the money, they have the power - far more than black folk overall. The question is *why* do black folk have an 'attitude problem'? Is it because they are disenfranchised with a system they feel is against them anyway, so why bother as only a lucky few break out of poverty? Is it because they have been historically oppressed to the point where there is a 'black culture' seperate from a 'white' culture to such a point that each group fears adopting the behaviours and customs of the other for fear of being branded a race-traitor? Can this be mitigated by improving opportunities for black youth? Loaning money to the community in fair and decent ways to allow them to reduce the number in poverty through education and business expansion?

If the police are seeming to target them more than others, perhaps their attitude problem is understandable. If the housing market is biased against, the job market, educational opportunities....perhaps there are ways to fix this that start way before a gun gets drawn at all.

So sure, 'they' have a responsibility. But we all do. Not being black our responsibilities are different, perhaps, in some ways, but they still exist. 'We' white people control the government, the justice system, the billionaire business owners clubs.... Historically 'we' white people created the cultural and social divide, created the familial poverty that continues to be inherited today no matter how 'enlightened' we are - those problems have been inherited. The social divides are still felt. Your comment may be accurate but it might be perceived as laying all the responsibility on the black community even as they are the present day victims of the prejudices that arise out of the problems caused by the divisions imposed upon them by the white folks who historically oppressed them - meaning their neighbourhoods are still filled with poverty, their educational prospects are lower. Better than 1950, but still room for improvement.

It'll take generations to change black culture, but we can start training cops today. If society seems less hostile to black people, their culture will adapt in return. A system of mutual feedback, but I think those in power who have inherited the benefits of historical oppression should take on the responsibility for kickstarting it. And we shouldn't blame the black community for being angry, for protesting, for trying to raise awareness at the inherent problems they face that white people often escape.

Over time, it may succeed, but 'we white' folk have to take *more* responsibility for 'black folks' attitude than 'we' are doing. 'We', in a historical and thus in present day to an extent, are responsible for it too - and have some considerable power to help change it. Likely a many generational issue before it is resolved, if it ever is.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Faith, posted 03-02-2017 8:36 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by Faith, posted 03-02-2017 9:37 PM Modulous has responded

    
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7410
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 214 of 275 (801047)
03-02-2017 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by Faith
03-02-2017 9:08 PM


Re: the big picture
Tell you what. If BLM protestors, or the black community in general, loudly denounced the violence that associates itself with them, even the obstruction of streets that sometimes occurs and causes problems for others, I'd be far more open to your argument.

Obstruction of streets and causing inconvenience is a peaceful way of protesting. Yes, it is civil disobedience but then so were the 'sit ins' that lead to and were employed by the Civil Rights Movements of the 60s. How's this:

quote:

The Black Lives Matter Network advocates for dignity, justice, and respect

The Black Lives Matter Network advocates for dignity, justice, and respect.

In the last few days, this country witnessed the recorded murders of Alton Sterling and Philando Castile at the hands of police, the latest victims in this country’s failed policing system. As we have done for decades, we marched and protested to highlight the urgent need to transform policing in America, to call for justice, transparency and accountability, and to demand that Black Lives Matter.

In Dallas, many gathered to do the same, joining in a day of action with friends, family, and co-workers. Their efforts were cut short when a lone gunman targeted and attacked 11 police officers, killing five. This is a tragedy–both for those who have been impacted by yesterday’s attack and for our democracy. There are some who would use these events to stifle a movement for change and quicken the demise of a vibrant discourse on the human rights of Black Americans. We should reject all of this.

Black activists have raised the call for an end to violence, not an escalation of it. Yesterday’s attack was the result of the actions of a lone gunman. To assign the actions of one person to an entire movement is dangerous and irresponsible. We continue our efforts to bring about a better world for all of us.

http://blacklivesmatter.com/...r-dignity-justice-and-respect



This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Faith, posted 03-02-2017 9:08 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 25606
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


(3)
Message 215 of 275 (801048)
03-02-2017 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by Modulous
03-02-2017 9:24 PM


Re: the big picture
Just convince me. You are doing a good job so far. If you convince me you can convince others. If you get "us" on BLM's side then "we" will have something we can actually do -- such as joining in convincing people -- instead of just hearing about how white people are the whole problem and blacks want to kill us, which is NOT a message likely to motivate "us.".

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Modulous, posted 03-02-2017 9:24 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by Modulous, posted 03-02-2017 10:10 PM Faith has responded
 Message 242 by Rrhain, posted 03-04-2017 9:10 PM Faith has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9730
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 216 of 275 (801049)
03-02-2017 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by Faith
03-02-2017 9:08 PM


Re: the big picture
Tell you what. If BLM protestors, or the black community in general, loudly denounced the violence that associates itself with them, even the obstruction of streets that sometimes occurs and causes problems for others, I'd be far more open to your argument.

No, you would not be far more open to the arguments of others. We know that because both black folks in general, and BLM in particular have made such denouncements repeated, and you have not changed your mind.

Instead what I see and hear -- and I admit I probably miss a lot of news -- what I see and hear is incendiary talk

"You miss a lot?" No shit. You only appreciate sources that harp on the incendiary talk of folks who don't represent "Black Community" whoever the #$@&! you think they are. If you cared about hearing what they or BLM had to say you could easily find such pronouncements from black people with next to zero effort.

Of course, your ignorance is always someone else's fault. You say you did not find enough youtube videos to convince you? Youtube is a piss poor way to do research.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Faith, posted 03-02-2017 9:08 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by Faith, posted 03-02-2017 9:44 PM NoNukes has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 25606
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


(1)
Message 217 of 275 (801050)
03-02-2017 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by NoNukes
03-02-2017 9:40 PM


Re: the big picture
No, I admit I am not motivated to do enough research and it's getting harder all the time. Right now my eyes are hurting pretty bad. I am not up to checking a lot of sources. I'm discouraged by things that are happening, and by such things as your poisonous attitude. Just get off the thread, you're a problem not a solution.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by NoNukes, posted 03-02-2017 9:40 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by NoNukes, posted 03-02-2017 9:46 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9730
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 218 of 275 (801051)
03-02-2017 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by Faith
03-02-2017 9:44 PM


Re: the big picture
No, I admit I am not motivated to do enough research and it's getting harder all the time.

You don't see anything wrong with making proclamations about what other folks have or have not done without checking? Please explain why that state of affairs reflects poorly on my logic.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Faith, posted 03-02-2017 9:44 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7410
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 219 of 275 (801054)
03-02-2017 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by Faith
03-02-2017 9:37 PM


Re: the big picture
Just convince me.

What would find convincing? Black people getting killed by police twice as often, per capita, as would be expected if all things being equal should be enough to be persuaded a problem exists.

I could give more statistics, if that helps. How about Forbes, a conservative leaning source that reports:

quote:
Last year {2011}, the NYPD made more stops of young black men than there are young black men in the city's population. 158,406 young black men live in New York City and the NYPD made 168,126 stops.

Young black and Latino men account for 4.7% of NYC’s population but 41.6% of the stops in 2011.


this study suggests:

quote:
evidence of a significant bias in the killing of unarmed black Americans relative to unarmed white Americans, in that the probability of being black, unarmed, and shot by police is about 3.49 times the probability of being white, unarmed, and shot by police on average

the maligned Washington Post collated a database and concluded:

quote:
when factoring in threat level, black Americans who are fatally shot by police are, in fact, less likely to be posing an imminent lethal threat to the officers at the moment they are killed than white Americans fatally shot by police...The only thing that was significant in predicting whether someone shot and killed by police was unarmed was whether or not they were black. . . . Crime variables did not matter in terms of predicting whether the person killed was unarmed.

https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/ {BLM affiliated}: no correlation between the level of violent crime in an area and that area’s police killing rates...fewer than one in three black people killed by police in 2016 were suspected of a violent crime or armed.

The San Francisco district attorney:

quote:
racial disparities regarding S.F.P.D. stops, searches, and arrests, particularly for Black people...the disparity gap in arrests was found to have been increasing in San Francisco...although Black people accounted for less than 15 percent of all stops in 2015, they accounted for over 42 percent of all non-consent searches following stops....Of all people searched without consent, Black and Hispanic people had the lowest ‘hit rates’ (i.e., the lowest rate of contraband recovered)

White folk were twice as likely to have contraband .

The Department of Justice:

quote:
African Americans are more than twice as likely as white drivers to be searched during vehicle stops even after controlling for non-race based variables such as the reason the vehicle stop was initiated, but are found in possession of contraband 26% less often than white drivers, suggesting officers are impermissibly considering race as a factor when determining whether to search

Chicago Police Accountability Task force:

quote:
black and Hispanic drivers were searched approximately four times as often as white drivers, yet [the Chicago Police Department’s] own data show that contraband was found on white drivers twice as often as black and Hispanic drivers.

ACLU:

quote:
African American and Latino drivers are nearly twice as likely as white drivers to be asked during a routine traffic stop for ‘consent’ to have their car searched. Yet white motorists are 49% more likely than African American motorists to have contraband discovered during a consent search by law enforcement, and 56% more likely when compared to Latinos

NYT:

quote:
{Police} used their discretion to search black drivers or their cars more than twice as often as white motorists—even though they found drugs and weapons significantly more often when the driver was white...officers were more likely to stop black drivers for no discernible reason. And they were more likely to use force if the driver was black, even when they did not encounter physical resistance

Justice Department:

quote:
{The sheriff’s office} engages in racial profiling of Latinos; unlawfully stops, detains, and arrests Latinos; and unlawfully retaliates against individuals who complain about or criticize [the office’s] policies or practices

Harvard study: police officers are more likely to use their hands, push a suspect into a wall, use handcuffs, draw weapons, push a suspect onto the ground, point their weapon, and use pepper spray or a baton when interacting with blacks.

Center for Policing Equity : African-Americans are far more likely than whites and other groups to be the victims of use of force by the police, even when racial disparities in crime are taken into account

Several big universities study:

quote:
police used less force with highly stereotypical Whites, and this protective effect was stronger than the effect for non-Whites

Dept of Justice:

quote:
Analysis of limited data suggests that, in certain precincts, S.P.D. officers may stop a disproportionate number of people of color where no offense or other police incident occurred

governor’s task force : 9 out of the 10 off-duty officers killed by other officers in the United States since 1982 were black or Latino

Stanford:“2,890 African Americans handcuffed but not arrested in a 13-month period, while only 193 whites were cuffed. When Oakland officers pulled over a vehicle but didn’t arrest anyone, 72 white people were handcuffed, while 1,466 African Americans were restrained


This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Faith, posted 03-02-2017 9:37 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by Faith, posted 03-02-2017 10:17 PM Modulous has acknowledged this reply
 Message 226 by Faith, posted 03-04-2017 3:20 AM Modulous has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 25606
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


(3)
Message 220 of 275 (801057)
03-02-2017 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by Modulous
03-02-2017 10:10 PM


Re: the big picture
I can't read your post right now, and I still have to read the BLM site and my eyes are really hurting, so I probably won't get back to this until tomorrow. But thanks for your effort, you've done a really good job, and believe me I would very much LIKE to be convinced and end up on BLM's side.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Modulous, posted 03-02-2017 10:10 PM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by xongsmith, posted 03-03-2017 12:44 AM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12871
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 221 of 275 (801058)
03-03-2017 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by Faith
03-02-2017 8:54 PM


Re: the big picture
I would suggest that anyone who automatically calls a depiction of a peaceful BLM protest a lie is hardly going to have a fair view of the matter.

And can you please stop calling all criticism of you and your attitude "poisonous". When you are arrogantly shoving your shortcomings in our faces it is hardly our fault if we object to them.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Faith, posted 03-02-2017 8:54 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 1783
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 222 of 275 (801060)
03-03-2017 12:15 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by Faith
03-02-2017 12:30 PM


Re: targets
Faith writes, in Message 183:

I can't make out the picture.

Folks, maybe the rest of us should have to take a step back. We may have been railing against Faith without an understanding of how her eyesight is failing. If she cannot see well enough - and really not well - it hardly behooves us to dogpile on that.


- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Faith, posted 03-02-2017 12:30 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 1783
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 4.1


(2)
Message 223 of 275 (801063)
03-03-2017 12:44 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by Faith
03-02-2017 10:17 PM


Re: the big picture
Faith writes:
I can't read your post right now, and I still have to read the BLM site and my eyes are really hurting, so I probably won't get back to this until tomorrow.

Faith - have you seen a doctor about your vision? I hope you are well. But I think you may need to see someone - maybe just for an update.

All the best. You're making me cry. "my eyes are really hurting" scares me.

Edited by xongsmith, : verklempt


- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Faith, posted 03-02-2017 10:17 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by Faith, posted 03-04-2017 2:19 AM xongsmith has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5765
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 224 of 275 (801098)
03-03-2017 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by Faith
03-02-2017 8:54 PM


Re: the big picture
When I hear about cops being killed because of BLM

Examples. Please show examples of how BLM was responsible for a cop being killed.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Faith, posted 03-02-2017 8:54 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 25606
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 225 of 275 (801194)
03-04-2017 2:19 AM
Reply to: Message 223 by xongsmith
03-03-2017 12:44 AM


vision problem
Thanks xongsmith, very much for your concern. I try not to make a big deal about my eyes but they are a problem and maybe I should make more of it because it is a big reason I can't keep up with things here, at least at times. I'll only read the first part of an article for instance and so may miss something else in it that's important.

I am overdue to see the eye doctor but I know what the problem is and there's no cure except trying to go easy on my eyes. I have macular degeneration which I can keep from getting worse with a supplement I take but it's incurable in the end; plus a cataract in one eye, which can be cured but isn't too too bad yet; and I get eyestrain easily these days from straining to see things through those problems. The eyestrain causes the pain.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by xongsmith, posted 03-03-2017 12:44 AM xongsmith has not yet responded

    
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