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Author Topic:   The Disgusting Berkeley Riots
JonF
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Posts: 3878
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 241 of 275 (801282)
03-04-2017 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by Faith
03-04-2017 5:46 PM


Re: the big picture (BLM)
Yup, that's the theory. No evidence for it, of course.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Faith, posted 03-04-2017 5:46 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Rrhain
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Posts: 6121
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 5.8


(2)
Message 242 of 275 (801286)
03-04-2017 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by Faith
03-02-2017 9:37 PM


Re: the big picture
Faith writes:

quote:
Just convince me. You are doing a good job so far. If you convince me you can convince others. If you get "us" on BLM's side then "we" will have something we can actually do -- such as joining in convincing people -- instead of just hearing about how white people are the whole problem and blacks want to kill us, which is NOT a message likely to motivate "us.".

I'm going to leave this here:

I want every white person in this room who would be happy to be treated as this society in general treats our citizens -- our black citizens -- if you as a white person would be happy to receive the same treatment that our black citizens do in this society, please stand.

[nobody moves]

You didn't understand the directions.

If you white folks want to be treated the way blacks are in this society, stand.

Nobody's standing here.

That says very plainly that you know what's happening. You know you don't want it for you. I want to know why you're so willing to accept it or to allow it to happen for others.

Do you understand why I am directing this at you, Faith? You are unwilling to consider the possibility that people who aren't you have a legitimate claim to their own lives. That they would know better about their lives than you do. You need to be "convinced"? Exactly what is it that makes you think you can contradict others about their own lives?

Oh, that's right.

They're not you.

And you know better.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Faith, posted 03-02-2017 9:37 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by Faith, posted 03-04-2017 10:40 PM Rrhain has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 25826
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 243 of 275 (801296)
03-04-2017 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by Rrhain
03-04-2017 9:10 PM


Re: the big picture
Straw man. You obviously haven't been following anything I've said. I've acknowledged the legitimacy of the complaints (Modulous made a good case; I hope I don't regret it); I'm arguing against the method of protest.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 18855
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


(2)
Message 244 of 275 (801339)
03-05-2017 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by Faith
03-04-2017 5:46 PM


the real picture (BLM)
... started by three Marxist revolutionaries.

Again, I don't know any. Were these people classified as such by one of your websites or do they self-identify as Marxist revolutionaries - because that has not come up on any sites I've visited re BLM.

quote:
Black Lives Matter (BLM) is an international activist movement, originating in the African-American community, that campaigns against violence and perceived systemic racism toward black people. BLM regularly holds protests against police killings of black people and broader issues of racial profiling, police brutality, and racial inequality in the United States criminal justice system.

In 2013, the movement began with the use of the hashtag #BlackLivesMatter on social media, ... Since the Ferguson protests, participants in the movement have demonstrated against the deaths of numerous other African Americans by police actions or while in police custody. In the summer of 2015, Black Lives Matter activists became involved in the 2016 United States presidential election.[3] The originators of the hashtag and call to action, Alicia Garza, Patrisse Cullors, and Opal Tometi, expanded their project into a national network of over 30 local chapters between 2014 and 2016.[4] The overall Black Lives Matter movement, however, is a decentralized network and has no formal hierarchy.[5]


Let's go over that last sentence, because that is how I perceive the movement to be organized:

... The overall Black Lives Matter movement, however, is a decentralized network and has no formal hierarchy.

It started as a Facebook post that then became a hashtag on social media. People that go to BLM protests do so on their own will to protest against the deaths of African Americans by police actions or while in police custody. Protests are spontaneous, with notice going out on social media. It is people coming together to protest what they find to be unacceptable discriminatory behavior.

The only "violence" I've seen during the protests I have been involved with were perpetuated by white male confederate flag waving skinheads, with "all lives matter" banners and trucks rigged to give off foul exhaust aimed at the BLM marchers, but then I don't live in a hotbed of racial injustice or where there is a history of violent racism (ie south).

Now let's look at the "organizers" listed:

... The originators of the hashtag and call to action, Alicia Garza, Patrisse Cullors, and Opal Tometi, ...

quote:
Alicia Garza (born January 4, 1981) is an African American activist and editorial writer who lives in Oakland, California. She is of Mexican-American and African-American descent. She has organized around the issues of health, student services and rights, rights for domestic workers, ending police brutality, anti-racism, and violence against trans and gender non-conforming people of color. Her editorial writing has been published by The Guardian,[1] The Nation,[2] The Feminist Wire,[3] Rolling Stone, Huffington Post and truthout.org. She currently directs Special Projects at the National Domestic Workers Alliance. She also co-founded the Black Lives Matter movement.[4][5]

Garza, with Opal Tometi and Patrisse Cullors, birthed the Black Lives Matters movement. Garza is credited with inspiring the slogan when, after the July 2013 acquittal of George Zimmerman, she posted on Facebook: "Black people. I love you. I love us. Our lives matter, Black Lives Matter" which Cullors then shared with the hashtag #BlackLivesMatter. Garza's organization Black Lives Matter was spurred on by the deaths of black people by police in recent media and racial disparities within the U.S. criminal justice system. She was also struck by the similarities of Trayvon Martin to her younger brother, feeling that it could have been him killed instead.[6] Garza led the 2015 Freedom Ride to Ferguson, organized by Cullors and Darnell Moore that launched the building of BlackLivesMatter chapters across the United States.[7] Garza self-identifies as a queer woman, and her spouse is biracial and transgender; Garza draws on all of these experiences in her organizing and activism.[8]


No mention of her being a "Marxist revolutionary" or being a member of any Marxist organization.

quote:
Patrisse Cullors (born 1983) is an African American artist and activist from Los Angeles, an advocate for criminal justice reform in Los Angeles and a co-founder of the Black Lives Matter.

Along with community organizers and friends Alicia Garza and Opal Tometi, Cullors founded Black Lives Matter. The three started the movement because of frustration over George Zimmerman's acquittal in the shooting of Trayvon Martin. Cullors wrote the hashtag #BlackLivesMatter to corroborate Garza's use of the phrase in making a Facebook post about the Martin case.[4] Cullors further described her impetus for pushing for African American rights as stemming from her 19-year-old brother being brutalized during imprisonment Los Angeles County jails.[5]


No mention of her being a "Marxist revolutionary" or being a member of any Marxist organization.

quote:
Opal Tometi is a New York-based Nigerian-American writer, strategist and community organizer. Tometi is a co-founder of the Black Lives Matter.[1] She is the Executive Director at BAJI (Black Alliance for Just Immigration). Tometi collaborates with staff and communities in Los Angeles, Phoenix, New York, Oakland, Washington D.C. and communities throughout the Southern states. Tometi's work has been published by The Huffington Post.[2]

Tometi joined with Patrisse Cullors and Alicia Garza to give shape to the Black Lives Matter group. Tometi is credited with setting up the social media aspects of the movement.[4]


No mention of her being a "Marxist revolutionary" or being a member of any Marxist organization.

Then there is this:

quote:
A Herstory of the #BlackLivesMatter Movement by Alicia Garza

I created #BlackLivesMatter with Patrisse Cullors and Opal Tometi, two of my sisters, as a call to action for Black people after 17-year-old Trayvon Martin was post-humously placed on trial for his own murder and the killer, George Zimmerman, was not held accountable for the crime he committed. It was a response to the anti-Black racism that permeates our society and also, unfortunately, our movements.

Black Lives Matter is an ideological and political intervention in a world where Black lives are systematically and intentionally targeted for demise. It is an affirmation of Black folks’ contributions to this society, our humanity, and our resilience in the face of deadly oppression.


The rest of the article is well worth reading. There is no mention of being aligned in any way with Marxism.

Curiously the ONLY mention I find is on extreme right wing sites that associate BLM with the Freedom Road Socialist Organization in order to tar BLM with the Marxist brush. This is typical of right wing sites, imho. Calling someone a Marxist doesn't make them one.

So I find it very strange that not one liberal or leftist group or website that I could find mentions any such connection between BLM and Marxism. That connection seems to exist only inside the right wing bubble.

Furthermore, even IF they were Marxist revolutionaries, that doesn't make the movement or anyone else involved Marxist. It is a civil rights movement.

Enjoy

ps - does the tan text help?

Edited by RAZD, : .

Edited by RAZD, : .


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Faith, posted 03-04-2017 5:46 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Modulous, posted 03-05-2017 11:04 AM RAZD has responded

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7415
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 245 of 275 (801349)
03-05-2017 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by RAZD
03-05-2017 9:09 AM


Re: the real picture (BLM)
Alicia Garza
No mention of her being a "Marxist revolutionary" or being a member of any Marxist organization.

From Faith's link:

quote:
Born in 1981, Alicia Garza is a self-described “queer” social-justice activist who reveres the Marxist revolutionary, former Black Panther, and convicted cop-killer Assata Shakur for her contributions to the “Black Liberation Movement.”

Patrisse Cullors
No mention of her being a "Marxist revolutionary" or being a member of any Marxist organization.

quote:
Also in 2012, Cullors became interested in a civil-rights lawsuit filed by the American Civil Liberties Union alleging that gangs of deputies in the L.A. Sheriff's Department had been systematically beating and abusing inmates. Before long, Cullors and five likeminded friends began organizing protests against these alleged transgressions. As membership in her group grew to more than four-dozen people, Cullors named it Dignity and Power Now (DPN). Dedicated to “protecting incarcerated people and their families in Los Angeles,” DPN today is sponsored by the nonprofit group Community Partners. DPN is also a front group for the Marxist-Leninist Freedom Road Socialist Organization.

Opal Tometi
No mention of her being a "Marxist revolutionary" or being a member of any Marxist organization.

quote:
Since January 2011, she has been a national organizer for Black Alliance for Just Immigration (BAJI), a George Soros-funded group that strives to advance “immigrant rights and racial justice” for “African-American, Afro-Latino, African and Caribbean immigrant communities.” Tometi's official BAJI profile describes her as “a Black feminist writer, communications strategist and cultural organizer.” Notably, BAJI is a front group for the Marxist-Leninist Freedom Road Socialist Organization.

Just so the actual allegation is brought into the thread. The primary page is here - there are links to the profiles of the three women in that article.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by RAZD, posted 03-05-2017 9:09 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by RAZD, posted 03-05-2017 1:32 PM Modulous has acknowledged this reply
 Message 248 by Faith, posted 03-05-2017 4:22 PM Modulous has responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18855
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


(3)
Message 246 of 275 (801353)
03-05-2017 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Modulous
03-05-2017 11:04 AM


Re: the real picture (BLM)
Just so the actual allegation is brought into the thread. The primary page is here - there are links to the profiles of the three women in that article.

Yes, those are the same allegations of guilt by purported association that I saw on other right wing conspiracy websites.

What I said was:

quote:
Curiously the ONLY mention I find is on extreme right wing sites that associate BLM with the Freedom Road Socialist Organization in order to tar BLM with the Marxist brush. This is typical of right wing sites, imho. Calling someone a Marxist doesn't make them one.

What I don't see is ANY confirmation from non right wing conspiracy websites. In the absence of any such corroboration I don't see any reason to give them any credence.

I also tried to work backwards from those Marxist sites to see if they linked to BLM. They didn't, at least not that I could find.

Same for any link between Dignity and Power Now (DPN) and Freedom Road Socialist Organization.

Nor do I see anything I would call "Marxist retoric" within the Black Lives Matter movement.

These purported links appear to be fake news, like most "conspiracy news" ...

Similar accusations were leveled against MLK and other civil rights leaders. It's one easy way to dog-whistle conservatives against such movements.

And I also said:

quote:
Furthermore, even IF they were Marxist revolutionaries, that doesn't make the movement or anyone else involved Marxist. It is a civil rights movement.

So calling them "Marxist revolutionaries" is an attempt to tar the movement and avoid dealing with the issues.

Nor does it characterize the protests and the behavior of the protestors.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Modulous, posted 03-05-2017 11:04 AM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29183
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


(6)
Message 247 of 275 (801367)
03-05-2017 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by Faith
03-04-2017 4:56 AM


The "liberation movement" theme, the raised fist
Faith writes:

I pointed out the Marxist theme in the BLM website itself. The "liberation movement" theme, the raised fist. If I read more of the site I'll probably find more.

You can start by looking here for your Marxist Liberation Theme:

Edited by jar, : fix sub-title


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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Faith
Member
Posts: 25826
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 248 of 275 (801374)
03-05-2017 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Modulous
03-05-2017 11:04 AM


Re: the real picture (BLM)
Perhaps you are all ignorant of the symbology of sixties style Marxism. "Herstory" is a mild little clue but you never see that phrase in any other but a Marxist feminist context. "Struggle," the "Black Struggle," is a Marxist phrase. "Black Liberation" is a Marxist phrase. The symbol of the raised fist -- which of course suggests violence. The whole thing is wrapped around Marxist rhetoric and symbology.

At the very least it shows the leaders are up on the Marxist frame of reference, use the terminology, and have no doubt absorbed a lot of the doctrine. They also, or at least one of them, has ties to Black Panthers.

Even if I allow that it might be more window-dressing than strict Marxist ideology to some extent, it turns me away from it as a serious movement I could support.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Modulous, posted 03-05-2017 11:04 AM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by jar, posted 03-05-2017 4:28 PM Faith has responded
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jar
Member
Posts: 29183
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 249 of 275 (801377)
03-05-2017 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by Faith
03-05-2017 4:22 PM


Re: the real picture (BLM)
I have to ask you Faith. Have you read Marx works? Have you read the vast library of writings from thinkers such as Leon Trotsky? Not the bullshit pushed by the modern so called Conservatives but rather what they actually wrote?

What do you find objectionable about Marxism?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Faith, posted 03-05-2017 4:22 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by Faith, posted 03-05-2017 4:31 PM jar has responded
 Message 251 by Faith, posted 03-05-2017 4:35 PM jar has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 25826
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 250 of 275 (801378)
03-05-2017 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by jar
03-05-2017 4:28 PM


Re: the real picture (BLM)
I read tons of books by Marxists in the sixties, Marxist feminists in particular. This is the rhetoric used by BLM.

Oh, "patriarchy." That's on the site too, another Marxist feminist term.

Oh lots of other books too, Jacoby, cultural Marxism, Frankfurt School, can't remember the author of the big book about that.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by jar, posted 03-05-2017 4:28 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 25826
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 251 of 275 (801380)
03-05-2017 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by jar
03-05-2017 4:28 PM


Re: the real picture (BLM)
Marxism is a lie, it's a fantasy/theory that never touches reality. It's really a religion. It's designed to create class conflict in the guise of analyzing it. It promotes violence, it rationalizes killing people who disagree with you. It is anti-American, it undermines all the freedoms granted us in America. In the form of Cultural Marxism it specifically aims at the destruction of Western Civilization.; And guess what, it has succeeded to a scary extent.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by jar, posted 03-05-2017 4:28 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by jar, posted 03-05-2017 4:38 PM Faith has responded
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jar
Member
Posts: 29183
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 252 of 275 (801381)
03-05-2017 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by Faith
03-05-2017 4:31 PM


Re: the real picture (BLM)
That was not the question Faith.

Have you read the works of Marx and Trotsky? Not the 60s wannabees. But the real thing?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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Genomicus
Member
Posts: 846
Joined: 02-15-2012
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 253 of 275 (801382)
03-05-2017 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by Faith
03-05-2017 4:31 PM


Re: the real picture (BLM)
Oh, "patriarchy." That's on the site too, another Marxist feminist term.

And the problem with the term "patriarchy" as used by third wave feminists is what exactly? Just because a concept originates in a Marxist framework doesn't mean it's wrong.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Faith, posted 03-05-2017 4:31 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 25826
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 254 of 275 (801383)
03-05-2017 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by Genomicus
03-05-2017 4:37 PM


Re: the real picture (BLM)
It's a lie as they use it and it's a lie designed to destroy culture.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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jar
Member
Posts: 29183
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 255 of 275 (801384)
03-05-2017 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by Faith
03-05-2017 4:35 PM


Re: the real picture (BLM)
Again, you are just spouting propaganda.

Have you actually read the works and writings of Marx and Trotsky?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Faith, posted 03-05-2017 4:35 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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