Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 113 (8748 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 05-23-2017 10:54 AM
414 online now:
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: kmastes01
Post Volume:
Total: 808,867 Year: 13,473/21,208 Month: 2,955/3,605 Week: 297/933 Day: 39/154 Hour: 11/6

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
14151617
18
19Next
Author Topic:   The Disgusting Berkeley Riots
Faith
Member
Posts: 24842
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 256 of 275 (801385)
03-05-2017 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by jar
03-05-2017 4:38 PM


Re: the real picture (BLM)
I've said what I wanted to say.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by jar, posted 03-05-2017 4:38 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by Faith, posted 03-05-2017 4:55 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 24842
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 257 of 275 (801387)
03-05-2017 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by Faith
03-05-2017 4:39 PM


Re: the real picture (BLM)
BLM's Marxist terminology is Sixties Cultural Marxism, Marxism aimed against Western Civilization, "Critical Theory" which is nothing but an excuse for destructive rhetoric against everything good and solid in American culture.; It is a false narrative of oppressed classes, it turns injustices into a whole theory of class oppression which justifies defining a hated enemy, such as the white race in the case of blacks, such as men in the case of feminists. Anybody remember "the Society for Cutting Up Men" from the sixties? The rhetoric of Hate Whitey is in the BLM site. Marxism is a huge evil. Maybe even a bit like Islam since it focuses on hated enemies defined as the problem to be done away with.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Faith, posted 03-05-2017 4:39 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by jar, posted 03-05-2017 5:09 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 260 by Genomicus, posted 03-05-2017 5:20 PM Faith has responded
 Message 263 by 14174dm, posted 03-06-2017 8:03 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18455
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 258 of 275 (801391)
03-05-2017 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by Faith
03-05-2017 4:22 PM


Re: the real picture (BLM)
Faith- did the tan text in Message 244 help readability for you? I thought less contrast would help. Let me know if that did not work for you.

Perhaps you are all ignorant of the symbology of sixties style Marxism. "Herstory" is a mild little clue but you never see that phrase in any other but a Marxist feminist context. "Struggle," the "Black Struggle," is a Marxist phrase. "Black Liberation" is a Marxist phrase. The symbol of the raised fist -- which of course suggests violence. The whole thing is wrapped around Marxist rhetoric and symbology.

No. I'm quite aware of the symbology from the sixties, and it was much more than Marxism, so I just don't think it can be associated solely with Marxism. For instance

"herstory" is just simply a feminist (womens equality) term to use instead of "HIStory" - where history has been traditionally written by men. Feminism is not Marxism.

"Struggle" is just that, and it owes no allegiance to any political stripe. That Marx recognized the struggle poor people and working people face under capitalism does not mean he invented or owns the term. People struggle to pay their rent because the pay they get from work is not sufficient.

"Black struggle" is the struggle blacks face to live a prosperous life in a country with systemic racism.

"Black Liberation" is what the civil war was about, liberating PoC (People of Color) from oppression.

The raised fist is a generic symbol, it can mean anger or solidarity or resistance or victory (Trump with raised fist).

At the very least it shows the leaders are up on the Marxist frame of reference, use the terminology, and have no doubt absorbed a lot of the doctrine. They also, or at least one of them, has ties to Black Panthers.

No Faith, it shows that you see Marxists under every bed. Being familiar with the "frame of reference" just means being well read and educated on the issues of socioeconomic justice and injustice.

But more importantly, if they were Marxist that doesn't change the BLM protest movement for civil rights and civil justice being a valid movement that identifies real problems in our society.

Nor is Marxism per se necessarily bad:

quote:
Marxism

Marxism is a method of socioeconomic analysis that analyzes class relations and societal conflict using a materialist interpretation of historical development and a dialectical view of social transformation. It originates from the mid-to-late 19th century works of German philosophers Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels.

Marxist methodology originally used a method of economic and sociopolitical inquiry known as historical materialism to analyze and critique the development of capitalism and the role of class struggle in systemic economic change. According to Marxist perspective, class conflict within capitalism arises due to intensifying contradictions between the highly productive mechanized and socialized production performed by the proletariat, and the private ownership and appropriation of the surplus product (profit) by a small minority of the population who are private owners called the bourgeoisie. ...


For "proletariat" you can substitute "workers," and for "bourgeoisie" you can substitute "corporate owners," and this description is more valid today than ever as income and wage gaps are increasing.

Being aware of the problems inherent in our socioeconomic system is half the battle in dealing with it in a just and equitable manner.

That people naturally object to being oppressed in this manner doesn't make them Marxist, it makes them people that are angry and resentful of being oppressed, and it makes them want to change the system.

Even if I allow that it might be more window-dressing than strict Marxist ideology to some extent, it turns me away from it as a serious movement I could support.

Not all activists are Marxist (follow Marxist doctrine) they can simply be protesting the systematic oppression of poor working people.

That you see evil is your problem.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Faith, posted 03-05-2017 4:22 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28828
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 259 of 275 (801392)
03-05-2017 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by Faith
03-05-2017 4:55 PM


Faith spouts the Prty Line
Faith writes:

BLM's Marxist terminology is Sixties Cultural Marxism, Marxism aimed against Western Civilization, "Critical Theory" which is nothing but an excuse for destructive rhetoric against everything good and solid in American culture.; It is a false narrative of oppressed classes, it turns injustices into a whole theory of class oppression which justifies defining a hated enemy, such as the white race in the case of blacks, such as men in the case of feminists. Anybody remember "the Society for Cutting Up Men" from the sixties? The rhetoric of Hate Whitey is in the BLM site. Marxism is a huge evil. Maybe even a bit like Islam since it focuses on hated enemies defined as the problem to be done away with.

We know that you can parrot the Cultural Conservative Fascist Party Doctrine yet once again it is just assertion with no reasoned support or evidence.

You cannot even show where Black Lives Matter focuses on hated enemies. Remember Faith, it is Trump who focuses on enemies instead of dealing with reality or issues. It is Trump who posts all the tweets about doing away with enemies.

It was Trump's Minion Miller who said:

quote:
MILLER: Well, I think that it's been an important reminder to all Americans that we have a judiciary that has taken far too much power and become, in many cases, a supreme branch of government. One unelected judge in Seattle cannot remake laws for the entire country. I mean this is just crazy, John, the idea that you have a judge in Seattle say that a foreign national living in Libya has an effective right to enter the United States is -- is -- is beyond anything we've ever seen before.

The end result of this, though, is that our opponents, the media and the whole world will soon see as we begin to take further actions, that the powers of the president to protect our country are very substantial and will not be questioned.


Edited by jar, : appalin spallin


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Faith, posted 03-05-2017 4:55 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Genomicus
Member
Posts: 815
Joined: 02-15-2012
Member Rating: 4.7


(2)
Message 260 of 275 (801394)
03-05-2017 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by Faith
03-05-2017 4:55 PM


Re: the real picture (BLM)
"Critical Theory" which is nothing but an excuse for destructive rhetoric against everything good and solid in American culture...

Critical Race Theory is used to de-construct and critique the systematic and institutionalized racism prevalent in America's legislative and other structures. Do you consider systematic racism part of "everything good and solid in American culture"?

it turns injustices into a whole theory of class oppression which justifies defining a hated enemy, such as the white race in the case of blacks...

No, CRT isn't about hating the white race -- it's about fighting and de-constructing white supremacy and privilege.

The rhetoric of Hate Whitey is in the BLM site.

Where specifically?

Maybe even a bit like Islam since it focuses on hated enemies defined as the problem to be done away with.

The eight million or so Minangkabau Muslims don't focus on hated enemies:

"The subject of Bin Laden came up a number of times during the summer. Everyone was adamant that the Islam they were taught prohibits violence and the use of force. We achieve our ends through negotiation and discussion, not through force, I was told. One man said that his Islamic education stressed the importance of thinking about others. The same idea was expressed to me in 1981 by the foremost adat-religious leader in West Sumatra, Dt. Idrus Haikimy, now deceased." - from ethnographic study by anthropologist Peggy Reeves Sanday, post-9/11

That's just one example of how your prejudiced and ignorant perspective of Islam-as-monolithic leads you to make bizarre comments like the one above.

Edited by Genomicus, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Faith, posted 03-05-2017 4:55 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by Faith, posted 03-06-2017 1:50 PM Genomicus has responded

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7407
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 3.6


(3)
Message 261 of 275 (801396)
03-05-2017 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by Faith
03-05-2017 4:22 PM


Re: the real picture (BLM)
it turns me away from it as a serious movement I could support.

As I said, you can still support their cause - regardless of what you believe about the Marxist roots of the movement. I can tell there is no persuading you away from your notion they are related to Marxism - or that this is not really a problem if true. I can't say that just because you disagreed with some things in the sixties, means that the people today are the same, using the same techniques in the same way - even as they are using some of the techniques that have proven peaceful and effective.

No more than I can use similar methods to point out that you are using the tactics an language of those that have historically retarded civil rights movements, trying to shift focus away from the problems - and the call to action and instead trying to look at a small number of cases, and to use loose associations to try to build a shoddy, but persuasive to some, case of guilt by association.

If you acknowledge there is a problem that faces black, and you work towards fixing it - that's the main thing. If you agree that black lives matter, and the system is presently treating them as less you should be supporting their cause. Forget 'supporting the movement' because it isn't a singular entity. There are no doubt raging Marxist revolutionaries amongst them - and perhaps these are the kinds of people that become spokespeople and organisers in these movements. There are millions who support their goals that are none of these things. Support their goals, stop shitting on things for dubious reasons.

If you can support '#DefeatHitler' even though major players in the movement were literally run by Stalin - you should be able to support a cause like #BlackLivesMatter even if some members believe civil rights issues are a struggle between two groups of disparate power (ie., what you seem to be calling Marxism).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Faith, posted 03-05-2017 4:22 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6096
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 4.4


(1)
Message 262 of 275 (801430)
03-06-2017 6:31 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by Faith
03-04-2017 10:40 PM


Re: the big picture
Faith responds to me:

quote:
Straw man.

Evasion.

quote:
You obviously haven't been following anything I've said.

You obviously didn't understand what was presented to you:

Would you want to be treated the way we treat our black citizens?

quote:
I've acknowledged the legitimacy of the complaints

No, you haven't. You've paid lip service and then immediately dismissed the reality of the lives of black people, acting as if they were the ones provoking the racism directing against them. Your claim that "pig" is somehow a "Marxist" term is proof. Your claim that the raised fist and invocation of the Black Panthers is proof.

quote:
I'm arguing against the method of protest.

But you're lying about the "method of protest."

Thus, you're claim that you are "arguing against the method of protest" is trivially proven false.

Your political correctness is showing, Faith. But give you a little scratch and your racism starts gushing out.

Edited by Rrhain, : No reason given.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Faith, posted 03-04-2017 10:40 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
14174dm
Member
Posts: 115
Joined: 10-12-2015
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 263 of 275 (801437)
03-06-2017 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by Faith
03-05-2017 4:55 PM


Re: the real picture (BLM)
You do realize that the sixties were 50 years ago? How many of the BLM and other protesters were even alive let alone politically active then?

Maybe you should consider the events and discussions that these activists would be involved with.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Faith, posted 03-05-2017 4:55 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13017
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 264 of 275 (801454)
03-06-2017 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 251 by Faith
03-05-2017 4:35 PM


Re: the real picture (BLM)
Faith writes:

It promotes violence....


Actually, Marxism promotes self-defence by the workers against the violence of the ruling class. You remember self-defence, don't you? That thing that you approve of and I don't?

You're more of a Marxist than I am.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Faith, posted 03-05-2017 4:35 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 24842
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 265 of 275 (801468)
03-06-2017 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by Genomicus
03-05-2017 5:20 PM


Re: the real picture (BLM)
Critical Race Theory is used to de-construct and critique the systematic and institutionalized racism prevalent in America's legislative and other structures. Do you consider systematic racism part of "everything good and solid in American culture"?

It's been fascinating to find out that you are a true Marxist yourself, I mean totally Marxified. "Critical Race Theory" yet. "De-construct" yet. I recognize those terms as Marxist along with the others I've been discussing here, but obviously nobody else does. (Do you know what "de-construct" really means? It means you feel free to trash other people's thoughts and substitute your own, your own of course being today's Marxist party line.) There is no systematic and institutionalized racism in America, that's just one of the Marxist "theories" that is a lie designed to destroy the best political system ever devised for the good of humanity.

We're in really bad shape if you're representative of what the universities are turning out these days.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Genomicus, posted 03-05-2017 5:20 PM Genomicus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by jar, posted 03-06-2017 2:00 PM Faith has responded
 Message 274 by Genomicus, posted 03-06-2017 4:34 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 28828
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 266 of 275 (801469)
03-06-2017 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by Faith
03-06-2017 1:50 PM


Re: the real picture (BLM)
Have you ever read the works Marx wrote?

Have you ever read the works Trotsky wrote?

Have you ever read the Bible?

Could the reason you are so clueless about Marxism be that like the Bible, you never actually read the material and instead are relying of what the apologists make up?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Faith, posted 03-06-2017 1:50 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by Faith, posted 03-06-2017 2:19 PM jar has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 24842
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 267 of 275 (801474)
03-06-2017 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by jar
03-06-2017 2:00 PM


Re: the real picture (BLM)
Have you read Foucault, Derrida? I'm talking about the latest Marxists, who use Marx theories for completely new purposes. Have you read Marcuse, Adorno, Derek Jacoby?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by jar, posted 03-06-2017 2:00 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by jar, posted 03-06-2017 2:25 PM Faith has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 28828
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


(2)
Message 268 of 275 (801475)
03-06-2017 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by Faith
03-06-2017 2:19 PM


Re: the real picture (BLM)
Faith writes:

Have you read Foucault, Derrida? I'm talking about the latest Marxists, who use Marx theories for completely new purposes. Have you read Marcuse, Adorno, Derek Jacoby?

Some, but as I said they are simply fanboys and what they write seems to have nothing to do with Marxism. It's kinda like what the Christian apologists write; it seems to have nothing to do with what's actually written in the Bible.

So despite you trying to palm the pea and move the goal posts the questions remain.

Have you ever read the works Marx wrote?

Have you ever read the works Trotsky wrote?

Have you ever read the Bible?

Could the reason you are so clueless about Marxism be that like the Bible, you never actually read the material and instead are relying of what the apologists make up?

AbE: and maybe Jacobi?

But Critical Theory is a Tool. It's like a screwdriver or hammer, a tool to be used.

Edited by jar, : see AbE:


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by Faith, posted 03-06-2017 2:19 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by Faith, posted 03-06-2017 2:26 PM jar has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 24842
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 269 of 275 (801477)
03-06-2017 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by jar
03-06-2017 2:25 PM


Re: the real picture (BLM)
I know you want to change the subject. I'm talking about modern Marxism whether you like it or not. Ever read Juliet Mitchell or any of the other Marxist feminists? PC comes out of all that stuff whether you like it or not. The terminology anhd symbology I've been talking about comes out of it.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by jar, posted 03-06-2017 2:25 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by jar, posted 03-06-2017 2:35 PM Faith has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 28828
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 270 of 275 (801479)
03-06-2017 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 269 by Faith
03-06-2017 2:26 PM


Re: the real picture (BLM)
Faith writes:

I know you want to change the subject. I'm talking about modern Marxism whether you like it or not. Ever read Juliet Mitchell or any of the other Marxist feminists? PC comes out of all that stuff whether you like it or not. The terminology anhd symbology I've been talking about comes out of it.

More utter nonsense Faith.

Modern Marxism is something that simply does not exist. It's as silly as claiming that there is a single "Christianity"

Juliet Mitchell is a feminist. A moderately successful one who had an effect on feminism in general. But feminism like Black Live Matter and Black Power and the whole Civil Rights Movement have nothing to do with Marxism.

You really need to stop listening to the liars Faith.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by Faith, posted 03-06-2017 2:26 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by Faith, posted 03-06-2017 2:46 PM jar has responded

  
RewPrev1
...
14151617
18
19Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017