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Author Topic:   Fake polls, fake news
Riggamortis
Member (Idle past 2390 days)
Posts: 167
From: Australia
Joined: 08-15-2016


Message 123 of 710 (800086)
02-19-2017 8:29 PM


Emails
https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/46736
We plan to heat the pool, so a swim is a possibility. Bonnie will be >> Uber Service to transport Ruby, Emerson, and Maeve Luzzatto (11, 9, and >> almost 7) so you’ll have some further entertainment, and they will be in >> that pool for sure
3 young girls for entertainment.
WikiLeaks - The Podesta Emails
> Ps. Do you think I’ll do better playing dominos on cheese than on pasta? >
Cos we all play dominoes on food items.
https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/32795
Hi John, The realtor found a handkerchief (I think it has a map that seems pizza-related. Is it yorus? They can send it if you want. I know you're busy, so feel free not to respond if it's not yours or you don't want it.
A pizza-related map on a handkerchief, wtf?
The alleged code.
hotdog = boy
pizza = girl
cheese = little girl
pasta = little boy
ice cream = male prostitute
walnut = person of color
map = semen
sauce = orgy
Edited by Riggamortis, : No reason given.
Edited by Riggamortis, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Modulous, posted 02-19-2017 8:50 PM Riggamortis has replied

  
Riggamortis
Member (Idle past 2390 days)
Posts: 167
From: Australia
Joined: 08-15-2016


(1)
Message 132 of 710 (800107)
02-20-2017 3:52 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by Modulous
02-19-2017 8:50 PM


Re: Emails
[sarcasm] Oh thank god I have you to be the voice of reason so I don't get carried away with my tinfoil hat.[/sarcasm]
I'm sure you noticed that I made no statements regarding anything being evidence of a satanic child sex ring. Folks were talking about the weird emails so I found a couple and posted them along with a little comment to avoid posting bare links and quotes. My position is to neither believe nor dismiss the allegations. You, however, seem desperate to dismiss them.
Children are entertaining - especially when they are going nuts in a pool. No pizza or cheese code here, I notice.
You often uber in some young girls for entertainment at your parties do you? How many party invites have you received where young girls were sold as the entertainment? They aren't referred to as anyone's children, which would make some sense. Children are entertaining but it is certainly weird for them to be considered the entertainment.
I do many activities on food items. I code on coffee. I've played pool on way too much pizza. This person was expecting pasta and received a lot of cheeses in a box as a gift:
I'm guessing you don't often ask people whether they think you'd be a better pool player on pizza or burgers though. Yeah it's still bloody weird.
Clearly a reference to a secret map to a child abuse den. Or maybe the person was organising a pizza party and drew a map on a handkerchief. Or maybe the map was a separate item entirely, that the handkerchief was wrapped around or placed upon. Nah, probably child abuse code, right?
You aren't normally an arrogant, condescending prick Mod. What gives?
All you seem to be saying is that if you can imagine some innocent way of interpreting the emails they must be innocent.
Why are you so desperate to dismiss the possibility that there is something going on here?
I'm sure many parents dismissed the possibility that their priest was molesting their children.
I'm sure many mothers have dismissed the possibility that their partner was abusing their children.
I'm not so eager to dismiss the possibility of an elite child abuse ring. You know people of all types are capable of being pedophiles, even police. What exempts the wealthy people who have the best chance of getting away with it?
Edited by Riggamortis, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Modulous, posted 02-19-2017 8:50 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by Modulous, posted 02-20-2017 1:13 PM Riggamortis has replied

  
Riggamortis
Member (Idle past 2390 days)
Posts: 167
From: Australia
Joined: 08-15-2016


Message 179 of 710 (800207)
02-20-2017 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Modulous
02-20-2017 1:13 PM


Re: Emails
I'm sure you noticed I didn't accuse you of thinking they were evidence of anything.
Not explicitly, no. Your sarcastic dismissal of nonsense was directed at me and implied that I did think they were evidence.
I was sarcastically dismissing nonsense. Sorry if that comes across as arrogant or condescending. Are you saying that these *are* evidence of a child sex ring? Speaking of condescending and arrogant:
You fired the first shot mate. I just responded in kind. If you can resist the temptation to direct sarcasm and snark in my direction, you'll find I will too.
Since you have clearly concluded that the allegations are nonsense, I am compelled to ask how you came to that conclusion?
I'm not, I can just see absurd trolling and laugh at those that fall for it. I mean the original source for the child abuse link here is 4chan - home of the trolls for Pete's sake. There is the possibility that any given email could be secret code for something else - but that doesn't mean one should give it serious consideration unless there is actual reason to suspect it.
I agree. I take it you have looked into the deeper reasons why some people are giving it serious consideration? How long did you spend? 5,10,30 minutes? Longer? Or did you just google something like 'pizzagate debunked' and engage in a little confirmation bias?
I don't see any reason to suppose they are evidence of a child sex ring - and will mock those that do.
It makes you feel superior, does it? Or is it just about trying to humiliate the person into accepting your opinions on the matter?
Nor am I. I insist that such child abuse rings exist. I am not desperate, however, to interpret someone talking about a handkerchief and a pizza related map as evidence of a child abuse ring. Because that's absurd.
People aren't looking at a couple of emails in a vacuum and concluding that something sinister is going on, there's more to it than that. You would know that if you had bothered to look into it for yourself.
In which case, why would an elite child abuse ring use universal codes in their emails? Why not create their own codes so that random hackers/burglars/law enforcement wouldn't be alerted? That is the point of an elite child abuse ring, right?
I'm not inclined to infiltrate a pedo group to verify whether or not it is a well known code or not. The code provides plausible deniability, if it is a code, it's working very well, no?
quote:
"Only the small secrets need to be protected.
The big ones are kept secret by public incredulity."
Marshall McLuhan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Modulous, posted 02-20-2017 1:13 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Modulous, posted 02-20-2017 9:42 PM Riggamortis has replied

  
Riggamortis
Member (Idle past 2390 days)
Posts: 167
From: Australia
Joined: 08-15-2016


Message 271 of 710 (800386)
02-22-2017 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Modulous
02-20-2017 9:42 PM


Re: Emails
I read them and noticed they were absurd. You don't think saying things like 'map' is a secret code word for semen is absurd? That 'cheese' should be taken as a secret codeword for little girls is ridiculous? That a private elite sex ring would use apparently common codewords of child porn sharing chatroom paedos is unbelievable?
Yeah it's certainly pretty out there. I find the very fact that people can get off on abusing children to be absurd, yet they can. I find the fact that we live at the mercy of a ponzi-scheme financial system to be absurd, yet we do. I find it absurd that people living in the 21st century still believe in Bronze Age fairy tales, but they do. I find it absurd that the US govt would plan false flag attacks on its own citizens to provide justification for war against Cuba, but they did. I find it absurd that people think bombing and invading Muslim countries is going to help solve problems that were largely created in the first place by bombing and invading Muslim countries, but they do.
The only conclusion I can draw here is that a persons subjective assessment of an idea being absurd is not in itself evidence against that idea. Since the argument from absurdity demonstrably does not lead to certain conclusions, it would be irrational to take a position of certainty based on that line of reasoning alone.
Did you read the leaked 'climategate' emails? If I told you that 'temperature' meant 'penis' and 'carbon' meant semen and 'data' meant 'young boys' would that be remotely credible as a claim to you? Or would I need to engage in some numerology and loose associations through an anonymous chat board before the burden shifts to you to prove its absurdity?
I guess it would depend on whether the emails made more sense with or without the code. I couldn't rationally dismiss the claim based on perceived absurdity alone.
Close. It's the same reason I mock people who believe in time cubed, that aliens shot Kennedy, that the earth is 6,000 years old and Jesus rode a dinosaur. Reason clearly doesn't work, and sometimes embarrassing people does make them work a little harder than they had previously been doing to justify their beliefs.
Those things are not comparable to the allegations of a VIP child abuse ring. Evidence exists contradicting the possibility of Jesus riding dinosaurs or a 6000 year old earth. Aliens are completely unevidenced entities. A VIP child abuse ring doesn't invoke magic or unevidenced entities. It claims only that humans are doing things that humans are known to do.
We know that humans abuse children. We know that groups of people conspire to that end. We know that the elite suffer from a higher rate of pyscopathy than the general population. We know that the elite participate in unusual rituals - spirit cooking and whatever they do at bohemian grove.
We have sworn testimony from people across the world that they were abused by VIP's in a ritualistic fashion. Most of them have been deemed not credible based solely on the fact that their stories sound absurd. Given the above, the general allegation that a VIP child abuse ring exists is not that absurd at all.
Well....erm...no. Because a bunch random anonymous folk on 4chan and reddit 'figured it out' (without backing up their claims with evidence). Had they used a private code, which are trivial to concoct, they could have avoided this possibility. Or alternatively, the guys on 4chan would have generated a completely different and baseless code with which to troll the world.
First you stated that codes were used not to be unbreakable but to provide plausible deniablilty, now you're saying the code is a failure because it was cracked. Which is it?
Assuming it is a code, not only have they maintained plausible deniability but they also have an army of people like you willing to ridicule anyone who doesn't immediately dismiss the claims. I'd be pretty happy with it, myself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Modulous, posted 02-20-2017 9:42 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by Modulous, posted 02-22-2017 9:36 PM Riggamortis has replied

  
Riggamortis
Member (Idle past 2390 days)
Posts: 167
From: Australia
Joined: 08-15-2016


(1)
Message 306 of 710 (800455)
02-23-2017 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by Modulous
02-22-2017 9:36 PM


Re: Emails
Sounds sensible. You should probably also conclude that someone saying something is nonsense and absurd is not intended to be evidence.
Except when people say 'that's absurd, I cannot possibly believe that' they are citing absurdity as evidence against the idea that they are rejecting.
Of course. One doesn't get to certainty when it comes to negatives. Sure, the moon landings may have been a hoax to cover up the disappearance of Lord Lucan.
Of course you can, just not by pointing to its absurdity. For example, the YEC god doesn't exist, I'm certain of that because there's contradictory evidence.
Might I suggest a concept called skepticism?
Might I suggest you don't impose a position on me that I do not hold. I am skeptical of the claims, that is why I do not believe them, I am also skeptical of your apparent certainty that they are false, that is why I do not believe you.
On the other hand, you are skeptical of the claims but apparently not so skeptical of your own ability to know that they are false. I think RAZD calls that pseudoskepticism.
The anonymous claims of 4chan trolls of common codes do not constitute evidence. Innuendo is not evidence. Photographs of people wearing T-shirts of their business is not evidence of child abuse. Photographs of freezers is not evidence of kill rooms.
Nor did I claim that they were evidence. A photo of a freezer uploaded to the internet with the caption 'murder' is pretty weird though. A photo of a young girl bent over a table with her hands taped to that table is also weird. In light of all the weirdness I don't feel comfortable concluding that there is nothing else weird going on. You do and that's fine, but it does not give you the right to attempt to ridicule me into accepting your conclusion. I am happy with not having drawn a conclusion, why do you feel it necessary to force me to one?
Indeed. For instance, is it more sensible for someone to email from a work email to someone in politics to ask if they want a handkerchief that has a map to an event they are publicly organising {with, on, around} it returning or does it make more sense for someone to email from said address to ask if they wanted a handkerchief returned that was covered in semen from raping children/masturbating to child porn? I know when my friends 'come over' {heh} and leave their semen stained items on the kitchen island - my first instinct is to get on email and ask them if they want it back.
I've never known anyone to draw things on hankies, people generally use them to catch bodily fluids in my experience. Obviously it is the pizza-related map and not the hanky itself that the person asking the question thinks could be important, wouldn't you agree? A simple drawing of a map could be photographed and the hanky discarded, if the map is actually a stain of some bodily fluids then it could have some specific physical significance.
We could do this all day and at the end of the day all we would have achieved is you saying it's absurd and unbelievable and me saying it's not that absurd that I can simply dismiss it as false.
The existence of a VIP child abuse ring wasn't what I was calling absurd, indeed I insisted such things existed. It was the unevidenced ridiculousness of the specific claims in question that I was drawing comparisons to.
It makes no difference to my point. Since humans are known to engage in child abuse and humans are known to use codes to communicate subtly there is no comparison to magical humans riding critters that didn't even co-exist with humans. The two claims aren't even in the same ballpark. Pretty obvious if you try a bit harder to think about it.
A private sex ring does not need to do this. They can arrange their own coding system.
Perhaps they wanted a code they could use in public without setting off alarms. The alleged code would work for that.
And apparently there are so many credulous, I mean open-minded, folk like Faith and yourself, that find any 'denial' implausible that it seems to have failed spectacularly. And all this Elite VIP Child Sex ring had to do, was use anonymous emails, invent their own coding system and avoid CCing journalists into their discussions.
I don't believe it's a code. I don't disbelieve it's a code. My position is one of non-belief. This should not be a hard concept for an athiest to grasp, Mod. Your charge of credulity can only be based on you assigning me a position of belief, one I do not hold. Stop it. Credulous people believe the claims, incredulous people dismiss them. I do neither of those things, so I would appreciate it if you would stop claiming that I do. It would be nice if you could point to where I have found some 'denial' implausible or whatever you were rambling about there.
You know what also exists, and are vastly more common that VIP sex rings who use work email addresses or even just email addresses with their real names in them, 'commonly known' codes and cc journalists into their discussions? Liars and trolls on the internet. Unless you can provide some actual evidence here, the weight of probabilities is overwhelmingly in favour that this is a bunch of lies cooked up to spread doubts about John Podesta and through guilt by association, Hillary Clinton.
I'm guessing you aren't going to show your math? Everyone seems to genuinely think they've found a pedo code as far as I can tell. Even if the weight of probability is in your favour, you're still being an arrogant prick by insulting others in order to humiliate them into accepting your conclusion. I would want to be certain before I would take such action.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Modulous, posted 02-22-2017 9:36 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 308 by Modulous, posted 02-23-2017 10:58 PM Riggamortis has replied

  
Riggamortis
Member (Idle past 2390 days)
Posts: 167
From: Australia
Joined: 08-15-2016


Message 346 of 710 (800557)
02-25-2017 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 308 by Modulous
02-23-2017 10:58 PM


Re: Emails
Ok, so we both think it's silly to conclude that Podesta is part of a pedo ring given the presented evidence.
You state that you are only mocking me if I believe the claims are proof of a pedo ring but you are lying.
And apparently there are so many credulous, I mean open-minded, folk like Faith and yourself, that find any 'denial' implausible that it seems to have failed spectacularly.
Yes, calling someone gullible is generally considered an insult. That it's based on the false charge of finding 'any denial implausible' is just funny. I find the 'denial' very plausible, I don't think the evidence presented actually builds a case, I do find that the possibility of the claims being true or partially true is somewhat more than the possibility that Jesus rode dinosaurs, that is the distinction you dismissed.
Indeed, it's strange that you felt the need to get on a high horse about how it might be true. It can't be proven to be false. But then, of course it can't. That's the nature of these kinds of allegations - I can't prove anybody isn't abusing children unless I had a film detailing every minute of their life.
My point has nothing to do with asking anyone to prove anything false.
And the comparison I was drawing wasn't regarding the magical nature of the humans. You can't prove that dinosaurs didn't co-exist with humans, for a start. You can't prove that dinosaurs are presently extinct, to continue. You can't prove Jesus wasn't magical.
There's no evidence to suggest that humans co-existed with dinosaurs though, is there? Indeed the evidence is contradictory. There's no evidence that a magical human ever existed either.
If there was evidence of some magical humans and also that they co-existed with dinosaurs, the proposition that one of them was named Jesus and he rode dinosaurs is still a specifically unevidenced assertion but it does gain some plausibility beyond philosophical doubt. If there is nothing but philosophical doubt I will happily take a position, if there is more than philosophical doubt I am a little more hesitant.
You state that you mock 'believers' in these allegations in order to motivate them to either reconsider their beliefs or produce evidence to justify them. You then link this somehow to preventing people from entering places with guns demanding to see evidence that would justify their belief. I don't know if that man was mocked prior to his offences; nevertheless, you should be able to see that your intentions could really backfire. Perhaps explaining to gullible believers how to take the neutral position would be a safer strategy.
Edited by Riggamortis, : Still going
Edited by Riggamortis, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by Modulous, posted 02-23-2017 10:58 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 347 by Modulous, posted 02-25-2017 10:14 PM Riggamortis has not replied

  
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