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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Fake polls, fake news | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Theodoric Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
Will be anxiously awaiting those examples.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
About the Sweden remark by Trump.
It isn't clear exactly what Trump was referring to, but it could have been lots of different reports on what is going on in Sweden. He said he got it from Fox News, and it's possible. He may have the date wrong. But there's SO much out there about the crime rate in Sweden going up because of the Muslim immigrants it could have come from anywhere. The focus on the specifics of Trump's misstatement or lack of clarity is of course a version in itself of fake news to distract from the important point, that Sweden is suffering a huge crime problem as a result of Muslim immigration, which Trump used as one example to explain why we need to be careful about taking in Muslim refugees. The problem turns out to be the stranglehold of political correctness on Europe and on Sweden. They cannot admit to the crime problem because that would be "racist." If it's racist we're talking about Muslim immigrants as the cause. Here's Fox News trying to straighten out the problem. Listen to the Tucker Carlson video to the right of the page. Two cops try to take back their statement that there is a crime wave but do mention not wanting to be considered racist, which gives it away, followed by an interview of Ami Horowitz who has reported on the increase of crime in Sweden. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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nd that "immigrants day" recently itself, the whole thing, was exactly that sort of lie/fake news. Not fake news. Was there an immigrants day protest? Yes. Were there both legal and illegal immigrants who took part in the protest? Yes. Is there a significant part of the native population who is against any immigration or who wants to expand the definition of illegal immigrant to include folks who can currently immigrate legally? Yes and that latter statement applies to both Trump and you with your Muslim spew. So not fake news. This appears instead to be reporting on a subject you wish was either ignored or covered negatively. Real news for people who don't keep their heads in the sand.
After Trump’s electoral victory on November 8, rumors began circulating that multiple transgender teenagers had killed themselves in response to the election results. The extent of this appears to be a single organizations Tweet followed by a cancellation of the tweet. How does that compare to five years of Trump lying about Obama's birth certificate with the press publishing all of it? Trump finally admitted that there was no substance to the whole charade during his current campaign.
quote: Perhaps a little context is in order here. Yes DeVos was pressed to augment her answer that guns in schools was to be left up to the state. And rightly so. The questions were coming from the Senator from Connecticut who was rightly concerned about guns in schools. And Betsy's best answer was a flip remark about Grizzly bears? Not fake news. DeVos does advocate for choice in schools. What she does not advocate for is that charter schools have any government over sight. As a result, she has built systems of schools that are performing worse than the schools she wants. Now you may consider the fact that she wants to use vouchers to give the public choice a position in favor of public education, but when the system gives students the choice of failing schools then one might rightly consider her support counter the very idea of a public education. Not fake news.
quote: Uh, the most significant fake news about this massacre was right wing folks claiming that a Muslim man was responsible. I'm not going to excuse that.
quote: Uh, Fox News? Yeah, they sometimes have fake news. Less often than InfoWars maybe, but fake news nonetheless. I won't defend them. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
If you mean Trump's charge of "fake news", then no, it isn't a claim that the mainstream media is posting hoaxes. As Wikipedia says, "fake news" is "deliberately published hoaxes, propaganda and disinformation purporting to be real news." What Trump means by "fake news" is something different and incorrect. By "fake news" Trump means news that is unfavorable to him, like that he didn't have the largest inauguration crowd in history, or that he didn't have the biggest electoral victory since Reagan, or that there wasn't a terrorist incidence in Sweden Friday night. So is this thread about the Wikipedia definition of fake news or the Trump definition of fake news?
Trump is clearly misusing the term "fake news". For example, at his first press conference he called CNN "fake news" for reporting that a former British intelligence agent had gathered a dossier on Trump that purportedly contained potentially salacious material, specifically noting that they had not been able to confirm the validity of the dossier. Nothing they said was false or fake. One could very reasonable argue that CNN should not have reported this without gaining reliable information about the dossier's contents, that short of that the story lacked significance, but one can't argue that they said anything false or fake. Are you talking about Pissgate? And are we only to be bothered by a news story if the author says anything that is blatantly false or fake? What if a technically true statement is spun into a false narrative that the public passes on as fact? Is there any responsibility on the news agency to present their stories in a way that doesn't spark false narratives? Or is that totally cool as long as the explicit statements aren't technically blatantly false or fake? Sorry for the all-question response, but I'm not sure where I stand on this one yet.
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Percy Member Posts: 22490 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.0
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Hi Faith,
I appreciate the effort to try to post some evidence, but, well, I didn't see any example of "fake news" by the mainstream media in your post, the media that Trump has been castigating, the ones he mentioned in this tweet:
"The FAKE NEWS media (failing @nytimes, @CNN, @NBCNews, @ABC, @CBS and many more) is not my enemy, it is the enemy of the American people." And you can add the Washington Post to that list, Trump's omission of it was probably accidental. "Fake news" from the mainstream media would be anything from one of these news outlets that is demonstrably false (to use Wikipedia's definition, a hoax, propaganda or disinformation) that they refuse to back away from and continue promoting. We don't mean actual reporting or wording that Trump doesn't like. We don't mean tweets.
fortunately there are sources of information on fake news against Trump that I can refer to because I'm just aware of being drowned in it every day and am not good at keeping track of specifics. If you're truly being drowned in "fake news" every day then while reading or watching one of these mainstream media outlets just send us a post about it. Describe what was false and include a link to the article or the broadcast video. But as I said in my previous post, Trump (and you) are misusing the term "fake news." The mainstream media is not engaged in "fake news." They're just reporting facts that Trump wishes weren't true, like the news about the investigations into Russian connections. Whether Trump likes it or not, that these investigations are happening is a fact, and yet reporting about it is apparently what launched him on his cruise into nuttiness at last week's press conference. --Percy
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: The OP seems to prefer the Trump definition.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Oh stop it Faith. Accept that Trump cocked up - nothing happened in Sweden and the crime rate is low and falling. Sweden is both amused and angry about it, he just looks like a buffoon.
He said something similar back in 2016, claiming that there were parts of London that are no-go areas. A total fabrication. It had us all trying to find them. You'd think we'd know wouldn't you? He's the laughing stock of Europe, he's trashing the reputation of your country. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Percy Member Posts: 22490 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.0
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New Cat's Eye writes: So is this thread about the Wikipedia definition of fake news or the Trump definition of fake news? You mean should we use the actual definition of "fake news" or the fake definition of "fake news?" I'm going to vote for the actual definition.
And are we only to be bothered by a news story if the author says anything that is blatantly false or fake? I think Trump has set the standard for the threshold for what is false or fake, and that standard is the exact word you used: blatant. Trump claimed his inauguration drew the largest crowds in history, that his electoral college victory was the largest since Reagan, so that's the standard. Find examples of the mainstream media making similarly blatant false claims and then not backing away from them. --Percy
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
You mean should we use the actual definition of "fake news" or the fake definition of "fake news?" I'm going to vote for the actual definition. I see. I vote for discussing what people actually mean.
Find examples of the mainstream media making similarly blatant false claims and then not backing away from them. I'll pass. I don't think that's what people who are bitching about fake news are talking about. I think you've got a strawman there.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
It is of course very disappointing to find out that you and others don't want to know the truth, or think you do know it.
If you mean Trump's charge of "fake news", then no, it isn't a claim that the mainstream media is posting hoaxes. As Wikipedia says, "fake news" is "deliberately published hoaxes, propaganda and disinformation purporting to be real news." What Trump means by "fake news" is something different and incorrect. By "fake news" Trump means news that is unfavorable to him, like that he didn't have the largest inauguration crowd in history, or that he didn't have the biggest electoral victory since Reagan, or that there wasn't a terrorist incidence in Sweden Friday night. Seems to me the examples I posted could be understood to fit the Wikipedia definition. What's a hoax but a false account of something passed off as true? Also propaganda and disinformation purporting to be real news. All those examples could be described in such terms. They are shown to be false, not true reports that just happen to be unfavorable to Trump at all, but false, or absolutely unevidenced which ought to disqualify them anyway; all of them disinformation, misleading, lies. Seems to me the examples given fit the definition well enough. I'd extend it to giving a false impression to mislead the reader. Way too much stuff at EvC follows a similar pattern: majoring on nitpicking definitional niceties to distract from the important point is a biggie just as it is with the MSM fake news propaganda machine. Why doesn't anyone want to know the truth? I can understand an aversion to accounts of sheer evil such as Pizzagate, I have that aversion too, but the specifics of the emails are truly odd enough to raise at least a question, yet that is denied too, using absurdly convoluted rationalizations. I wonder what it would take to open some eyes around here? Surely it can't be impossible. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
I don't remember who originated it but it is certainly appropriate - it may not be verbatim because I am going from memory here.
The Press lies and the Government lies - but in a free country they are not the same lies.
Even if the media are lying - and there seems to be quite a bit of exaggeration and padding in the attempts to back up that claim - it is still the case that Trump and a good many of his supporters want the media and the Government to tell the same lies. And that would be worse than the present situation.
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Percy Member Posts: 22490 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.0
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New Cat's Eye writes: I see. I vote for discussing what people actually mean. I vote for people actually saying what they mean. We're not in Humpty-Dumpty land.
I'll pass. I don't think that's what people who are bitching about fake news are talking about. Pizzagate is an actual example of "fake news." That the Pope endorsed Donald Trump is another example of "fake news." That an FBI agent investigating Hillary Clinton was part of a murder-suicide is yet another example of "fake news." By labeling mainstream media reporting as comparable to such "fake news" Trump is doing the country a great disservice. The Fourth Estate is an essential part of a democracy. They're responsible for keeping the public informed about what is actually going on, and that is what the mainstream media is doing. Trump may not agree with what they say or how they say it, but he's already established his ignorance on a wide range of subjects. The truth is very unlikely to be what Trump declares it is. He's just doing what he's always done, which is to get his back up and double down on whatever peculiar impulsive claims he made.
I think you've got a strawman there. I don't think so. What's been done is noting that Trump is incorrectly labeling any reporting he doesn't like as "fake news." If Trump were a media outlet, and I guess his Twitter account could be counted as one, then he would be the one engaging in "fake news" big time. --Percy
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Accepting for the moment some validity to that maxim, and I may decide it shouldn't be accepted, but for the moment: Trump may be the official President but he is certainly not the "government" -- that still belongs to Obama and the anti-Trump people, and THEY ALL DO agree with the media as has been the case for the last eight years and beyond that.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Pizzagate is an actual example of "fake news." Are the Podesta emails "fake news" too?
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined:
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I thought it was all the spinned up articles that are passing off opinion pieces as facts that, when you dig into the sources and find the real story, end up being so far off-base that there's no way that the original claim could even be true. That's just shitty and deceptive journalism. This election cycle there was an actual epidemic of fake news, mostly targeted against right wing people, with the appearance of attacking the left. People made lots of money writing obviously and ridiculously fake stories - certain conservatives particularly ate it up and became the primary audience. It's Onion level silliness, without the winky face. Fake news isn't real stuff that's exaggerated, or fabricated in details, or with deliberate lies or opinion masquerading as fact peppered in. It's completely fabricated nonsense. Here is some actual Fake News headlines: "Pope Francis forbids Catholics from voting for Hillary!" "Bill Clinton's sex tape just leaked!" Hillary Clinton In 2013: ‘I Would Like To See People Like Donald Trump Run For Office; They’re Honest And Can’t Be Bought.’ The idea was to create stories that would some plausible to people with low fact-checking skills so they would share them on social media, with click-bait headlines, as a means for people to make quick and easy money through ad-revenue. Some Macedonian teenagers were making thousands a week from the industry described as something of a 'gold rush'. The promise of easy money, escalated the issue - and the scandal became even greater when Facebook's algorithms picked up on the popularly shared newsy articles and started sharing them automatically to those that they thought would be interested, magnifying the effect. Those that took part in the gold rush said they ran some stories designed to attract the left wing loonies, but found they were shared less and made less money, so the primary focus was on headlines that appealed to the base instincts of the credulous portion of the right - particularly Trump supporters. Other nations were targeted too, in some part due to the American market for fake news was being saturated. Russian State sponsored media outlets started to get in on the industry, although IIRC their stories were a little less absurd than the Macedonian trolls, fuelling more concerns against the Trump-Russia issue. Trump was clearly unhappy about the emerging actual news stories that many of his supporters were gullible dupes and that he was being aided by Russian propaganda, and seemed to adopt the tactic of changing the discussion by accusing actual established media sources of being Fake News on the grounds he thought, or wanted others to think, the stories were false - hoping, quite rightly, those same gullible dupes would fall for it. And here we are.
The hoaxes are just pure lies, but those aren't coming from the mainstream liberal media. Their fake news isn't pure lies, it's just spun so far that it looses touch. But that's just Business as Usual for media of all stripes - ie., that's just 'News', typically served with 'media spin'. Calling that 'Fake News' dilutes the term.
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