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Author Topic:   Fake polls, fake news
Riggamortis
Member (Idle past 2390 days)
Posts: 167
From: Australia
Joined: 08-15-2016


Message 346 of 710 (800557)
02-25-2017 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 308 by Modulous
02-23-2017 10:58 PM


Re: Emails
Ok, so we both think it's silly to conclude that Podesta is part of a pedo ring given the presented evidence.
You state that you are only mocking me if I believe the claims are proof of a pedo ring but you are lying.
And apparently there are so many credulous, I mean open-minded, folk like Faith and yourself, that find any 'denial' implausible that it seems to have failed spectacularly.
Yes, calling someone gullible is generally considered an insult. That it's based on the false charge of finding 'any denial implausible' is just funny. I find the 'denial' very plausible, I don't think the evidence presented actually builds a case, I do find that the possibility of the claims being true or partially true is somewhat more than the possibility that Jesus rode dinosaurs, that is the distinction you dismissed.
Indeed, it's strange that you felt the need to get on a high horse about how it might be true. It can't be proven to be false. But then, of course it can't. That's the nature of these kinds of allegations - I can't prove anybody isn't abusing children unless I had a film detailing every minute of their life.
My point has nothing to do with asking anyone to prove anything false.
And the comparison I was drawing wasn't regarding the magical nature of the humans. You can't prove that dinosaurs didn't co-exist with humans, for a start. You can't prove that dinosaurs are presently extinct, to continue. You can't prove Jesus wasn't magical.
There's no evidence to suggest that humans co-existed with dinosaurs though, is there? Indeed the evidence is contradictory. There's no evidence that a magical human ever existed either.
If there was evidence of some magical humans and also that they co-existed with dinosaurs, the proposition that one of them was named Jesus and he rode dinosaurs is still a specifically unevidenced assertion but it does gain some plausibility beyond philosophical doubt. If there is nothing but philosophical doubt I will happily take a position, if there is more than philosophical doubt I am a little more hesitant.
You state that you mock 'believers' in these allegations in order to motivate them to either reconsider their beliefs or produce evidence to justify them. You then link this somehow to preventing people from entering places with guns demanding to see evidence that would justify their belief. I don't know if that man was mocked prior to his offences; nevertheless, you should be able to see that your intentions could really backfire. Perhaps explaining to gullible believers how to take the neutral position would be a safer strategy.
Edited by Riggamortis, : Still going
Edited by Riggamortis, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by Modulous, posted 02-23-2017 10:58 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 347 by Modulous, posted 02-25-2017 10:14 PM Riggamortis has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 347 of 710 (800562)
02-25-2017 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 346 by Riggamortis
02-25-2017 9:00 PM


Re: Emails
Ok, so we both think it's silly to conclude that Podesta is part of a pedo ring given the presented evidence.
Oh good. At last. I call it 'absurd' and get an earful. Glad to see we actually agree. Makes me wonder why this exchange happened in the first place. Here is what started it:
quote:
Clearly a reference to a secret map to a child abuse den. Or maybe the person was organising a pizza party and drew a map on a handkerchief. Or maybe the map was a separate item entirely, that the handkerchief was wrapped around or placed upon. Nah, probably child abuse code, right?
That was me, saying it was silly to go from maps and handkerchiefs to child abuse dens and secret codes. You went all confrontational in response:
quote:
You aren't normally an arrogant, condescending prick Mod. What gives?
All you seem to be saying is that if you can imagine some innocent way of interpreting the emails they must be innocent.
My response?
quote:
I don't see any reason to suppose they are evidence of a child sex ring - and will mock those that do.
Apparently, you agree that there is no reason to suppose they are evidence of a child sex ring. All this has been a pointless chastisement of me because you don't like a little tongue in cheek sarcasm.
You state that you are only mocking me if I believe the claims are proof of a pedo ring but you are lying.
You don't provide evidence for this latest uncivil attack, I notice.
I do find that the possibility of the claims being true or partially true is somewhat more than the possibility that Jesus rode dinosaurs, that is the distinction you dismissed.
Yes, we agree on the relative probability of Jesus on dinosaurs issue; but I didn't dismiss the distinction - just pointed out it missed the point. The point was about unfalsifiable claims built off stupendously absurd reasoning (abe: and how and why I will use mockery - see Message 181) , not a point about the equality of absurdity of those claims. That's the third time I've said this now.
abe:
quote:
quote:
It makes you feel superior, does it? Or is it just about trying to humiliate the person into accepting your opinions on the matter?
Close. It's the same reason I mock people who believe in time cubed, that aliens shot Kennedy, that the earth is 6,000 years old and Jesus rode a dinosaur.Reason clearly doesn't work, and sometimes embarrassing people does make them work a little harder than they had previously been doing to justify their beliefs.
If there was evidence of some magical humans and also that they co-existed with dinosaurs, the proposition that one of them was named Jesus and he rode dinosaurs is still a specifically unevidenced assertion but it does gain some plausibility beyond philosophical doubt. If there is nothing but philosophical doubt I will happily take a position, if there is more than philosophical doubt I am a little more hesitant.
Great. Given the child sex rings exist, the proposition that in on such child sex ring, one of their members was John David Podesta (born January 8, 1949), a columnist and former chairman of the 2016 Hillary Clinton presidential campaign is still a specifically unevidenced assertion.
I'm not suggesting you hold anything more than the same tentativity you have over every other human in the world and the accusation they are involved in any activity, including criminal ones. I am merely suggesting that abandoning this tentativity is credulousness and the epistemological leaps required to reach the conclusions reached is absurd.
Apparently you agree with me, but not before hurling a few insults and innuendo in my direction. Not sure what that achieved.
You state that you mock 'believers' in these allegations in order to motivate them to either reconsider their beliefs or produce evidence to justify them.
I adopt a number of strategies, mockery is amongst them. I also deploy reason - such as the numerous reasons to doubt I have given to you.
You then link this somehow to preventing people from entering places with guns demanding to see evidence that would justify their belief.
I don't think I stated it would 'prevent' anything. I did suggest that dissuading people from errant libellous nonsense is probably something one should do, and pointed to a specific consequence of people not being persuaded away from the crazy. The position 'I can't dismiss it as false' it not particularly persuasive to that end, regardless of how true it is.
I don't know if that man was mocked prior to his offences; nevertheless, you should be able to see that your intentions could really backfire. Perhaps explaining to gullible believers how to take the neutral position would be a safer strategy.
I'm not sure if anyone explained to Edgar Maddison Welch that they couldn't dismiss his theory on the face of it and that it was more plausible than Jesus walking on water prior to his offences; nevertheless you should be able to see that your intentions could really backfire. Perhaps embarrassing some gullible believers will dissuade others from joining in and prove to be a safer strategy.
Hey - how about we use mockery, humour, wit and reason in combination to encourage a diversity of people who respond in different ways, to reconsider foolish notions?
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by Riggamortis, posted 02-25-2017 9:00 PM Riggamortis has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 348 of 710 (800568)
02-26-2017 5:46 AM
Reply to: Message 341 by Rrhain
02-24-2017 7:05 PM


Re: Galloping disinformation as usual
Ah well, clearly the propaganda from the Swedish government that is strangled by political correctness is simply preferred by posters here.
But to what end? What possible benefit could Sweden have in lying to its citizens about crime?
Well, that is a very good question. It's like the question of why so many here don't seem to object to illegal immigration, or accepting huge numbers of Muslim refugees. It seems to make no sense. There is of course the explanation of misplaced compassion. And there is the explanation of political correctness, which seems to be the most likely from what I've seen. We certainly feel the effects of that here, it's intended to be intimidating and it is, it really does shut people up if they are called racist. We are very happy that Trump for one doesn't seem to be susceptible to that effect. But there are many more videos at You Tube that bring out that motivation over all others. Fear of being called racist, fear of Sweden's being thought racist. It's a big problem in Germany of course because of their Nazi past, but for some reason Sweden is also strangled by it.
Just for reference on this point here's a guy who lives in Sweden giving that as his reason:
That video is a few years old but he also has one he made right after Trump's remakr that caused such a furor, if anyone wants to track it down.
Racism racism racism, that's the fear, that's the reason given. He also quotes Sweden's leader -- is he a Prime Minister? Not sure but whatever he is he actually said it would be just fine if the refugees took over Sweden, if they became Sweden. I have a terrible time understanding such a suicidal attitude but he did say it and you can find other Swedes saying similar things. It might not be too hard to find Americans saying the same thing about America.
So that's the answer to your question why they would lie about the crime statistics.
However, I think it's on that same video above that an explanation is given for how the statistics show both an increase and a decrease in crime depending on how you read them. So it may be that nobody's directly lying, just being selective about what statistics they prefer.
The very people you put forward as an example of this "political correctness" have called you a liar, Faith. So which is it? Were they lying when they talked to Horowitz or were they lying about how Horowitz portrayed them? And if they are liars, why are you using them as a source?
As I already said a couple of times I think it's quite clear that they were bullied out of their first admission that immigrants are the cause of the high crime wave. The "high crime areas" they are talking about in the Tucker Carlson interview that I posted in fact simply happen to be areas of high immigrqant population, which is a fact obscured by dumbing the language down to "high crime areas" to fool the public. Which when it gets published is an example of Fake News. Also one of the cops clearly says they are worried about being called racist when asked about why the Swedish government would lie about the statistics.
The most reasonable explanation is that they took a risk in telling the truth to Horowitz, then somehow somebody got to them.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 341 by Rrhain, posted 02-24-2017 7:05 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 370 by JonF, posted 02-26-2017 12:26 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 414 by Rrhain, posted 02-27-2017 3:57 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 349 of 710 (800571)
02-26-2017 6:24 AM
Reply to: Message 348 by Faith
02-26-2017 5:46 AM


Re: Galloping disinformation as usual
Just a couple more videos for your entertainment. There are tons of them. These are short:

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 350 of 710 (800572)
02-26-2017 6:37 AM
Reply to: Message 348 by Faith
02-26-2017 5:46 AM


Conspiracy theories are rarely reasonable
quote:
The most reasonable explanation is that they took a risk in telling the truth to Horowitz, then somehow somebody got to them
Why is that more reasonable than the idea that they are telling the truth ?
Given that you have to keep appealing to conspiracies covering up the evidence isn't it more reasonable to think that there is no special immigrant problem in Sweden, just the problems common to deprived areas - which are likely worse in places in the U.S.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by Faith, posted 02-26-2017 5:46 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 351 by Faith, posted 02-26-2017 6:44 AM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 351 of 710 (800574)
02-26-2017 6:44 AM
Reply to: Message 350 by PaulK
02-26-2017 6:37 AM


Re: Conspiracy theories are rarely reasonable
You have a few statistics on your side, that cfan be answered by statistics on the other side. And that's really all you've got except your prejudice that anything else is a conspiracy theory. I belive the evidence is quite clear, from the videos I've posted at least. And again my impression is that the cops had to change their testimony,l they even seem nervous in that interview. All they were doing is supporting the many other testimonies to a huge problem in Sweden, that is being suppressed for political reasons. The fear of racism, again, which one of the cops said characterizes the Swedish leadership, gives it away. And yes, OF COURSE the "high crime areas" are high IMMIGRANT areas.
Why do you all have to believe everything is hunky dory? How can you look at the videos of violence, hear the testimonies of rape and murder and decide those are the lies rather than the other way around? Reason has been shown for why the leadership would lie. What are you getting out of it?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by PaulK, posted 02-26-2017 6:37 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 352 of 710 (800575)
02-26-2017 6:54 AM
Reply to: Message 351 by Faith
02-26-2017 6:44 AM


Re: Conspiracy theories are rarely reasonable
quote:
You have a few statistics on your side, that cfan be answered by statistics on the other side
We have statistics that should be reliable. If you have anything as good I haven't seen it.
quote:
And that's really all you've got except your prejudice that anything else is a conspiracy theory.
Your whole idea that the reality is being covered up IS a conspiracy theory. That is not my prejudice that is just fact.
quote:
And again my impression is that the cops had to change their testimony,l they even seem nervous in that interview
But we don't know that they changed their testimony at all. And it is certainly not odd to feel nervous going on TV.
quote:
Why do you all have to believe everything is hunky dory? How can you look at the videos of violence, hear the testimonies of rape and murder and decide those are the lies rather than the other way around? What are you getting out of it?
You think that deprived areas are havens of sunshine and light ? Really ? I don't think that everything is hunky-dory, I just don't think that exaggerating the real problems and falsely putting all the blame on immigrants is a productive or good thing to do. What do you think you are gaining my indulging in this sort of misrepresentation ? It certainly doesn't convince me that you are correct.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 353 of 710 (800576)
02-26-2017 6:57 AM
Reply to: Message 349 by Faith
02-26-2017 6:24 AM


Re: Galloping disinformation as usual
Did you hear the part on that second video where the narrator says There have been been cases where wealthy families have had to give up their homes for refugees?
Does that remind you, as it does me, of what the Russian revolutionaries did? Do you remember the scene in Dr. Zhivago where his family home has been given over to poor people?
That MAY thrill your little socialist hearts, but if you have any rational memory of what happened in Russia I would think the violence of it would give you pause. However, we're now seeing violence too, aren't we, and guess where it's coming from, the Left of course.

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 354 of 710 (800577)
02-26-2017 6:59 AM
Reply to: Message 351 by Faith
02-26-2017 6:44 AM


Re: Conspiracy theories are rarely reasonable
Faith writes:
Why do you all have to believe everything is hunky dory?
Because there really is nothing to worry about, Faith.
The statistics are clear.
The videos really are not evidence. At best they could be called editorial commentary but never evidence.
There are NO reports from people I know in any of the areas you claim are being overrun that support your assertions.
In fact the overwhelming evidence is that immigrants, whether in the US legally or illegally improve America. That is as true for Muslim immigrants as for any other sector. They are good neighbors, increase our diversity, pay taxes, educate their children, work hard and while trying to make a better life for themselves and their children help make America a better place.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 351 by Faith, posted 02-26-2017 6:44 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 355 by Faith, posted 02-26-2017 7:02 AM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 355 of 710 (800578)
02-26-2017 7:02 AM
Reply to: Message 354 by jar
02-26-2017 6:59 AM


Re: Conspiracy theories are rarely reasonable
I don't doubt there are those even among illegal aliens, but their illegality is still illegality, and there are others who are not so well behaved, which are the ones Trump wants to deport. There are laws to be followed to become legal. Why not support those instead of championing the undermining of the nation?
As for Sweden you're just another of the lying disinformation network.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 354 by jar, posted 02-26-2017 6:59 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 356 of 710 (800579)
02-26-2017 7:06 AM
Reply to: Message 353 by Faith
02-26-2017 6:57 AM


Re: Galloping disinformation as usual
quote:
Did you hear the part on that second video where the narrator says There have been been cases where wealthy families have had to give up their homes for refugees?
It doesn't exactly sound plausible, does it ? At the least there must be more to the story. Why don't you find out some details that can be investigated. And ask yourself why you keep relying on videos with all their limitations.

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 357 of 710 (800580)
02-26-2017 7:20 AM
Reply to: Message 355 by Faith
02-26-2017 7:02 AM


Immigrants make America better
Faith writes:
I don't doubt there are those even among illegal aliens, but their illegality is still illegality, and there are others who are not so well behaved, which are the ones Trump wants to deport.
Again, that assertion is not supported by reality. There has been no evidence presented that the people being deported have committed any crimes other than not being able to show they are here legally (I'm not at all sure I could show I am here legally) and the rules as written by the Trumpettes include anyone even accused of a crime.
Sorry but in the US being accused of a crime does not a criminal make.
Faith writes:
There are laws to be followed to become legal.
Yes, but we need to make those laws less restrictive and provide the help and guidance needed to comply with the laws.
Faith writes:
Why not support those instead of championing the undermining of the nation?
Again, there is no evidence that immigrants, whether legal or illegal undermine the nation. Rather the evidence shows that immigrants, whether legal or illegal generally enhance the nation, make us a better nation.
Faith writes:
As for Sweden you're just another of the lying disinformation network.
Thank you Faith. I consider that my Christian Duty these days. I try to follow what Jesus would do.
Edited by jar, : fix sub-title

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 358 of 710 (800581)
02-26-2017 7:48 AM
Reply to: Message 351 by Faith
02-26-2017 6:44 AM


Re: Conspiracy theories are rarely reasonable
Faith writes:
You have a few statistics on your side, that cfan be answered by statistics on the other side. And that's really all you've got except your prejudice that anything else is a conspiracy theory.
We have official governemt and independent agency statistics on our side. Statistics that have been collected for tens of years before any of this fake nonsense was dreamed of. From before there could even be a point to fiddling with them. In Sweden the stats were even deliberately made worse so that women would be ecouraged to report every incidence of sexual assault. Long running campaigns have tried to get more rapes reported. The statistics are used by governments and other agencies for social policy and planning. Criminologists and journalists would spot any fiddling within minutes.
You have anecdote and youtubes. TV shows that have imposters and felons pretending to be experts and editorials that have since been debunked by those interviewed. And the only way you can deny the facts is to claim a conspiracy without evidence.
Do you really think that those are equally valid sides of an argument?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 359 of 710 (800582)
02-26-2017 8:19 AM


There is no good reason to dismiss video evidence as inferior. It can be true or faked just as written evidence can be, and so can statistics. Given the fact that there is too much good reason for the statistics to be faked to save face for Sweden, I would take that as weight added to my side. I have no idea what "felons" are being talked about. The videos I've put up are from good sources it seems to me. What motive could anyone have for pretending things are worse than they are? The reverse has been asked and I gave good reasons; I don't see any good reasons in answer to the opposite question. These people all have the demeanor of truth-tellers. They aren't giving speeches, they are telling what they've observed. The pictures of violent immigrants back them up.
There is something desperately wrong with this need to pretend there is no immigrant problem.

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 360 of 710 (800587)
02-26-2017 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 359 by Faith
02-26-2017 8:19 AM


lying to instill fear
Faith writes:
There is no good reason to dismiss video evidence as inferior.
Of course there is. It is not subject to verification, easily manipulated, and filled with innuendo and supposition.
Faith writes:
Given the fact that there is too much good reason for the statistics to be faked to save face for Sweden, I would take that as weight added to my side.
Yet you have never provided any reason to support the statistics might be faked. And in fact, reality shows the Swedish statistics are exactly the opposite of what you would expect if they were being faked.
Faith writes:
What motive could anyone have for pretending things are worse than they are?
A great motive is political gain. Trump lies constantly to gain power.
Edited by jar, : fix sub-titles

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

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