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Author | Topic: Questions based on a plain and simple reading of the US Constitution | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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This is fascinating, do you believe that non-U.S. citizens who never get near the U.S. and have no interest or desire to, also have U.S. constitutional rights? That.....everyone everywhere has the right to keep and bear arms? Does the U.S. government have to enforce that? But this thread is about how people are treated in this country, regardless of national origin or citizenship status. When you go to a foreign country (assuming you do) do you desire to be treated as
Inquiring minds want to know. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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As you say, Officer Mesa may well be granted immunity however the case may decide how far the protections of the US Constitution do extend. One of the arguments against torture is that IF the US tortured prisoners then foreign elements could justify torturing Americans, but IF the US did NOT torture prisoners then foreign elements could NOT justify torturing Americans, thus gaining moral support for US side of the conflict. I would think this principle would hold for any action by US citizens outside the US, that if we treat people as though they were law abiding US citizens in addition to the way they are treated outside the US then we would be seen as better and not the evil empire. The US is admired (supposedly) as the home of the free and the land of the brave, for our purported "all men are created equal" "with liberty and justice for all" and other founding concepts. It is sad how little of this is actually true. Just sayinby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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When you go to a foreign country (assuming you do) do you desire to be treated as A.An American citizen entitled to special privileges such as openly bearing arms and freely saying whatever you want, or No. Good start.
B.A person with the same legal rights of the citizens of that country, or If I'm there legally, yes.
C.A lesser person, someone that can be tossed in prison for no reason and with no recourse to justice. If I'm there illegally, yes. Fascinating. So if I'm a "legal" visitor to a country and then commit a felony, I should be entitled to a higher legal status than an "illegal" visitor that has committed no crime once in the country (being undocumented is a misdemeanor not a felony). Curiously, I think it is important to give anyone the same level of justice and treatment regardless of the purported crime, so I vehemently disagree with you on (C) - there are no "lesser people". I also happen to believe that "and justice for all" means an equal and fair treatment of people under the law. How we Americans treat others is a reflection of how well we abide by our founding principles -- is it real or is it lip service?
Inquiring minds want to know. Why do you like illegal immigrants being here? That's what I'd love to know. To begin with people can't be "illegal" -- they can commit illegal acts, but even then they are considered innocent until proven guilty. We don't hear people talking about an American committing theft as being an "illegal" person. The term you need is "undocumented" which is a broader category with a lot of nuances. The "Dreamer" kids are undocumented, but they were brought by parents -- the only crime they committed was being born on the wrong side of the border and staying with their family.
Why do you like illegal immigrants being here? That's what I'd love to know. Because this is the land of the free and the home of the brave, because America is (or was) a beacon of hope for people around the world. Because America prided itself once on being a land for refugees to come and seek asylum from horrors of war and famine in other countries. Because they are human beings with human rights. So I expect people to come to America to find their dreams, and that the more desperate they are, the more willing they will be to use whatever means possible to get here. Because that is what people do when they can no longer live in their home country. I accept that as part of the price of being a land of freedom and liberty and justice and equality ... not just words ( ... that ALL men are created equal, with certain inalienable rights ... with liberty and justice for all). Because I believe in a borderless world. When I grew up in Michigan we could cross the border to Canada with a cursory crossing, no documents required. Canadian coins and US coins were freely intermingled in our pockets. But the US has become increasingly paranoid and xenophobic and afraid of their own shadows to the point it is no longer the land of the free and the home of the brave, but the land of closed doors and the home of the scared.
Why do you like illegal immigrants being here? That's what I'd love to know. Because I believe the problem is in the regulations, not the people. Because every time states have tried to do without immigrants their crops rot in the fields because very few American will dirty their hands picking them. Georgia and Alabama tried it, the crops rotted in the fields. Because undocumented workers contribute to the economy in big ways, not just in the products of their labor, but in their consumption of goods -- the economy is made by the movement of money, not holding on to it, and the more people there are moving money from one pocket to the next the better the economy is. So in closing I would say because they are human beings, and their being in this country enriches it. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : .by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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The utter inanity of this remark form marc9000 is stunning
"Just as much"? Many conservative constitutional scholars consider all the amendments from number 11 on to be not quite as much as the first 10. Those, distorted by activist courts in later years, are how revisionist history gets written. If this were true the whole political process we have to day would be illegitimate.Article 5 clearly states a process for amending the Constitution Well I guess that when you spend your days picking and choosing what parts of the bible to use each day, that applying that approach to the constitution would be just more of the same. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Where are the photos of them killing cops? Try your favorite fake news outlet. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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That's right, because I don't agree that an undocumented immigrant is only guilty of a misdemeanor. ... Curiously your opinion is not the law.
... That makes a joke of any effort the U.S. border patrol puts fourth in keeping them out. It turns border enforcement into a game, with little slap-on-the-wrist punishments as little more meaningful than five yard penalties in a football game. Trying to keep people out is a joke, it will never work. Unless, perhaps, you would like to see them executed for the high crime of wanting a better life?
I don't see burdening ourselves to show blind trust to foreigners to be a U.S. founding principle. ... If you truly accept those founding principles as critical to the formation of the US then it should be no burden to apply them to anyone in the US.
... Is there something in....a Federalist Paper you could show me? ... Others are doing this job already.
... Why should we treat foreigners in a way that they might not find respectable, if they don't understand them, if they've never been exposed to them? So now they have to be tested to see which ones to treat badly and which ones to respect as human beings? Fascinating. Presumably the children should be treated the worst then?
Because they can speak English, ... So nobody that doesn't speak English can be an American. How's your Navajo?
... because they have some idea, however slight, of what U.S. morals are and a little about how free markets work. ... Like the morals of American White Christian Terrorists? And of course no other country is capitalist ...
... There is a big difference between the worse U.S. citizens versus non U.S. citizens from who-knows-where. Agreed. The immigrants generally are better educated on the constitution and laws, and more ready and willing to work hard to make a living.
Because the kids didn't commit a crime doesn't mean their parents should be rewarded for committing the crime of conceiving them as illegal immigrants. ... First time I ever heard of conceiving children being illegal, are you sure that's what you meant?
... Otherwise word spreads in other countries, "go to the U.S. and have children" Never mind if you won't be able to support them!" Which curiously is the law. Never mind that the parents are hard working people wanting to start a new life.
The U.S. didn't come into existence automatically, and it won't be preserved automatically. I think you're taking its existence for granted. A lot of people on the political left in the U.S. do today. It's happened before, the Roman Empire as only one example, and it can take hundreds of years for a fallen civilization to recover. ... So we need to close our borders to all comers and live like reinactors in our daily lives ... show home movies to preserve the ideal way to live, stuck forever in 1950 America? OR we recognize that things change, and that's why the constitution gets amended and laws get changed to adapt to changing times.
... It's been estimated that it was a thousand years before Europeans again achieved as high a standard of living as they had in Roman times. You mean the period of time that the churches suppressed information and burned books? When people were burned at the stakes for being heretics?
A one world government? That would cause ISIS to dissolve? Ah yes, the creation of the EU is what was behind ISIS forming, good catch.
That's what the Democrats in the south said when slavery ended. It worked out though, didn't it? So we should "JimCrow"the immigrants? Seems you knowledge of American history is a little lacking here.
The movement of money out of the country? Undocumented workers often send money back to their home country. Many of them contribute to the economy in big ways all right, they bring in the illegal drugs. That you don't see the danger in these things parallels the carelessness of the Romans 2000 years ago. The decline of the Romans was due in large part to the fact that they poisoned their people with lead used to line aqueducts and make drinking vessels (pewter is made with lead and other toxic heavy metals). And I do see the parallel to lead poisoned water in Flint and many other cities (lead used to seal cast iron pipes in virtually all city older sections as well as in old solder on copper pipes), and certainly in the dumbing down of America by Americans that want to believe myth rather than reality. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Wine? Excessive drinking? Maybe the problem was more with drunkenness than it was with lead in water. Does the U.S. today have a bigger and bigger appetite for drinking, and more importantly, illegal drugs resulting in overdoses? Are you really ignorant of the effects of lead on people? Romans as well as many other people of the time added lead to the wine to make it taste sweeter. The aqueducts they built to carry water great distances to supply the towns (not just Rome; I've been inside one at Nice France) were lined with lead.
quote: quote: It is accumulative, so low doses over many years builds up. You think a weekend hangover is worse? Really? Perhaps you should move to Flint Michigan and drink the water there. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : JonF, thanksby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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