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Author | Topic: Questions based on a plain and simple reading of the US Constitution | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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quote: Does a sweep where people are asked to provide evidence they are in the US legally violate this clause unless supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the names of the people or things to be seized?
quote: Does this clause require that anyone said to be committing the crime of being in the US illegally must be given full due process and should they lose any property because of deportation that the US Federal Government must provide just compensation?
quote: Does this require that anyone accused of the crime of being in the US illegally must be given a speedy and public trial in the State where they are accused and are entitled to Assistance of Counsel for defense?
quote: If deportation should cause damage greater than $20.00 can a civil trial by jury be demanded?
quote: Are not immigrants, even if illegal, still people?
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
marc writes: The U.S. Constitution does not apply to non U.S. citizens. It does not apply in any way until a persons citizenship is confirmed. Please provide the link to the part of the US Constitution that states that?
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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marc writes: Most would agree that non-U.S. citizens should not be allowed to vote in U.S. elections, and most would also agree that even an illegal immigrant should not be subject to cruel and unusual punishment within the U.S. And again, what does that have to do with any of the parts of the US Constitution I posted?
marc writes: More and more as transportation and communications make the world smaller and smaller, and as the political left's comprehension of the Constitution and intent of the framers gets fuzzier and fuzzier, it's not surprising that some would wonder if the Fourth Amendment, OBVIOUSLY intended only for citizens, would apply to illegal immigrants. Again, I posted the text of the IV Amendment. Where in it does it say or even imply that it applies only to citizens? In addition, where is there anything in Amendments IV, V, VI, VII, VIII, IX and X that might indicate they do not apply to anyone within the borders or the US?
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Again, where does it mention that those rights are reserved for citizens?
As you point out, the US Constitution applies to people within the borders of the US. That would include illegal immigrants within the borders of the US.
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
hbd writes: THIS is the greatness of America! During the period between 1880 and 1920, 20 million immigrants entered the U.S.! Was that wave of immigration "great" because it was mostly white Europeans that were immigrating? We also tend to forget that the European immigration was an East Coast phenomenon while on the West Coast it was mostly Asians and Mexicans (many who had been there before it was the US) that were building and flavoring the Nation.
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
marc writes: Because every house they own or rent, every paper and effect having anything to do with them, would be illegal because their presence in the U.S. is illegal. Too funny. How the hell can a house or papers be illegal? Even if they were illegal how would that have anything to do with the persons rights as granted under the US Constitution? No wonder the reaction in the Federal Courts to Trumps Executive Orders has been "You did NOT really issue that, did you?"
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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marc writes: There are very humane, yet firm and effective, ways to do it. So an immigrant living in the US since she was brought here at age 14 who is married with two US born children and living and working in the US for 20 years while paying taxes and who is following the procedure she was given by Immigration to report annually showing up for the annual report being arrested and deported, taken from her family, is considered fair and humane?
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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There is a case that is making its way up to the Supreme Court that will at least partially determine if the US Constitution applies even to non-citizens that are outside the US but near our borders.
quote: The family of the child that died sued charging the Border Patrol Agent with unlawful use of excessive force and unlawful seizure (IV Amendment) as well as deprivation of life without due process (V Amendment). So far the courts (divided) have held that the US Constitution does NOT extend beyond the border itself and that the family does not have the rights to sue but now the issue has been appealed to the SCOTUS.
quote: If they decide that the area was under US Control then the suit against the agent and likely the US Border Patrol will proceed.
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
NoNukes writes: If the Supreme Court agrees with this, it would mean that despite the fact that the Constitution does apply to non-citizens near the border, Officer Mesa will not be held liable. He will be granted immunity because the state of the law on this issue was not clear. On the other hand, the law would be considered clear for the next defendant in similar circumstances. As you say, Officer Mesa may well be granted immunity however the case may decide how far the protections of the US Constitution do extend. A secondary issue revolves around what justifies extreme responses. Is shooting justifiable when the person is 60 yards away and may throw rocks? Remember in this case the supposed justification was a report of kids throwing rocks. There are many other examples where things are clearer. For example where shots, actual gunfire, is directed from the Mexican side of the border into the US, but this case is no where near that clear.
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
NoNukes writes: Border security agents have been pardoned after convictions for committing attempted murder at the border. Prosecutions of these folks are extremely unpopular. Yup. Attitudes change slowly and sometimes change faster than the law.
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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marc writes: Why do you like illegal immigrants being here? That's what I'd love to know. Immigrants, whether here legally or illegally are for the most part great neighbors. They work hard to make a better life for themselves and their children, increase our diversity, obey the laws, pay taxes, help create a better America. It really is that simple. Edited by jar, : fix sub-title
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Faith writes: ILLEGAL immigrants CANNOT make America better. Of course they can and in fact they do. A great example is the mother of two, married and living in the US for over 20 years, who held a job, raised a family, paid taxes, educated her children and followed the law who got arrested and then deported when she obeyed the law.
Faith writes: For one thing they include criminals because they haven't been screened. Sorry but that is a truly stupid statement. Not being screened does not mean they are criminals.
Faith writes: For another their very illegality contributes to the erosion of the law. That's the same stupid assertion you make about same sex marriage. Sorry but simply bullshit Faith.
Faith writes: They are an offense to all those who have come here legally, who are not happy about it. That is another stupid assertion. Being unhappy is not a justification for either removing due process or discrimination.
Faith writes: You are just pushing a crazed form of self-justifying propaganda. Am I? They work hard to make a better life for themselves and their children, increase our diversity, obey the laws, pay taxes, help create a better America. How are those facts self-justifying propaganda?
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Faith writes: Sorry, there are definitely illegal immigrants who do NOT make America better. All the Hispanic gangs for instance. Another utterly stupid comment from you Faith. Hispanic gangs are made up of members that are US citizens and immigrants (legal and illegal) and even folk that are from countries other than Mexico. Yes, often gangs do not make things better but that has absolutely nothing to do with the issue of immigration.
Faith writes: LEGAL immigrants ARE offended by the lawless attitude that allows the illegals to stay. Another utterly irrelevant and inane comment Faith. Do you really think the husband of the woman that was deported or her two children was offended that his wife was here illegally?
Faith writes: And of COURSE you have to make it sound like I said they are ALL criminals, of course, just like a lying Leftist, like all those who did that to Trump when he talked about the illegal rapists. Oh, poor baby. But another really inane comment from you. The truth is that rape is bad and it does not matter whether the rapist is a citizen or legal immigrant or illegal immigrant. The problem is that Trump used the ignorance and prejudices of his Fellow Travelers to connect immigration and rape when there are no statistics that show immigrants are as great a rape threat and US born Christian citizens. Some laws should be broken, those laws that discriminate unjustly against minorities as an example. That is how the Rule of Law evolves (just like living things).
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Faith writes: That way leads to anarchy and to such criminal gangs as Black Lives Matter, and it's absolutely opposed to Martin Luther King's dream. There you go again making unsupported assertions like asserting that Black Live Matter is a criminal gang. But the big issues is that Black Lives Matter has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that immigrants in the US legally or illegally still have rights under the US Constitution and the Courts have held the Trump's Executive order violated those rights.
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Faith writes: BLM is racist thugs. Black Lives Matter protest against St. Paul police brutality (21587635011) [CC BY 2.0 (Creative Commons — Attribution 2.0 Generic — CC BY 2.0 )], by Fibonacci Blue from Minnesota, USA, from Wikimedia Commons Yup, Racist Thugs caught in the act. Edited by jar, : fix sub-title
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