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Author Topic:   Questions based on a plain and simple reading of the US Constitution
jar
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Posts: 29758
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


(2)
Message 136 of 169 (802054)
03-11-2017 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by LamarkNewAge
03-11-2017 4:08 PM


Re: For the record I find this Roman QUOTE debate END QUOTE to be an exercise in ignoranc
Don't bother. No one cares since it has NOTHING to do with the US Constitution.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by LamarkNewAge, posted 03-11-2017 4:08 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by LamarkNewAge, posted 03-11-2017 11:28 PM jar has not yet responded

  
marc9000
Member (Idle past 30 days)
Posts: 906
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


Message 137 of 169 (802059)
03-11-2017 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Theodoric
03-11-2017 9:24 AM


Re: Roman Empire
I asked you repeatedly to back up your arguments with evidence and all you have done is attack me. If you can support your arguments with actual facts and analysis then do it. If not stop the whole Roman comparison. Anyone can make a claim that the US is a modern collapsing comparison to Rome but all you have presented is facile assertions.

My message 120 was more than an attack on you. It's "facile" assertions could very well have been a partial outline on why the U.S. voters just made such a drastic change in the beliefs and intentions from their former president to their current one. The word "concise" would be more applicable to my generalizations than the word facile.

Most of which seem to be a gross misunderstanding of the actual end of the Roman Empire.

If you want to actually proceed down this road, your first requirement is to define what you believe constitutes the end of the empire. Once you do that we can go from there.

That would be a new thread which I'm not interested in.

I have never claimed to know more about the Roman empire than you. To do so would be silly. I know nothing about your academic background and you know nothing about mine. Also, academic credentials are not the only source of expertise. Extensive subject matter knowledge can be achieved through personal research and reading. I would have more respect for someone that can show subject matter expertise rather than a person with a PhD in an unrelated subject. That being said I can point to a number of books on the subject. There are a few general historical surveys that are quite good and also a few good fairly technical looks at the subject. Most should be available through a public library system or online.

It's not necessary to do an in-depth analyzation of the Roman Empire to make a few general points about how the U.S. could be making some of the same general mistakes that the Romans did, which contributed to their downfall. A few links that show the basics of why Rome fell, (most links generally agree on the basics) is all that's necessary. And yes, one of the links I'm about to show mentions the lead poisoned drinking water, which I'll address.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Theodoric, posted 03-11-2017 9:24 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
marc9000
Member (Idle past 30 days)
Posts: 906
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


Message 138 of 169 (802063)
03-11-2017 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Theodoric
03-11-2017 9:36 AM


Re: Roman Empire
Are you actually claiming you have no idea what sarcasm is?

I didn't look at it as sarcasm as much as an inability to address what I said.

Also, please stop misrepresenting what I post. It destroys your argument and makes you look petty and foolish.

This is ironic, since you misrepresented MY post by claiming it had nothing to do with Rome, since it actually had the word "Rome" in it.

I was showing that your post gave us nothing to show that the USA is like the Roman empire.

I'm not saying or implying that the U.S. is "like" the Roman Empire. I'm saying the U.S. could be making some general mistakes that both the Roman people of that time and the Roman government of that time were making.

If you want to have an honest debate I will gladly take up the challenge, with facts, data and analysis. If you want to continue down the road of dishonesty, than good day sir.

I'm not looking for long, drawn out, boring, hard to read nuts and bolts history of the Roman Empire. I realize that's the only way today's big government, wide open border liberals see as a chance to downplay the history proven dangerous carelessness the U.S. has been exhibiting, especially for the past 8 years. Don't you want to see my brief, concise response to your brief, concise claim about the lead poisoned drinking water in Rome?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Theodoric, posted 03-11-2017 9:36 AM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Theodoric, posted 03-11-2017 9:57 PM marc9000 has responded

  
marc9000
Member (Idle past 30 days)
Posts: 906
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


(1)
Message 139 of 169 (802068)
03-11-2017 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Theodoric
03-11-2017 9:59 AM


Re: there are no "illegal" people
Earlier you intimated that barabarian invasions were responsible for the the fall(hmm the USA has not been invaded), now it is the number of bureaucrats?

Does the U.S. have to be invaded before you on the left will believe it's actually possible for it to happen? We suffered a costly attack on 9-11-01, no one on the U.S. political left thought that could possibly happen either. After only 15 years, it now seems to be largely forgotten.

Your link does not provide original source. I will try to find original source. Numbers seem a bit off, but not sure. Context means everything.

The exact numbers aren't necessary for my general points to be valid. Here's another link of 8 reasons Rome fell, they generally agree with my previous link of 5 reasons;

http://www.history.com/...tory-lists/8-reasons-why-rome-fell

quote:
Invasions by Barbarian tribes

The U.S. is a "superpower", Rome was a "superpower" in its day. Not a term that I'm especially fond of, but its a designation of a (usually) large land-area country that is a successful country economically, is quite capable of defending itself, and can unfortunately be the envy of smaller, less successful countries. There are 2000 years difference in the existence of these two superpowers, but human tendencies and desires don't change. There are and have always been "wars and rumors of wars". The Romans had barbarian enemies, and the U.S. today has a barbarian enemy, ISIS. An invasion of the U.S. by ISIS will be considered impossible until it happens, just like the flying of planes into buildings was though impossible until it happened.

quote:
Economic troubles and overreliance on slave labor

$20 trillion in debt? Liberals claims that we need illegal immigrants in the country to do work that our citizens won't do?

quote:
The rise of the Eastern Empire

The increased political division in the U.S.? Just after previous elections, did you notice organized protests with people carrying signs "not my president"? Or is this the first one? A small minority, sure, but how many of the majority of that party did something besides wink and nod at them?

quote:
Overexpansion and military overspending

Overexpansion doesn't apply to the U.S. The question of military overspending could be questioned, since it seems they didn't have enough military to keep the barbarians out.

quote:
Government corruption and political instability

Sound familiar?

quote:
The arrival of the Huns and the migration of the Barbarian tribes

Arrival? Migration? Illegal immigrants, anyone?

quote:
Christianity and the loss of traditional values

Yes, some historians blame Christianity for the fall of Rome. But it wasn't a free (for individuals) exercise of Christianity that was the problem, it was the attempts to establish it as a state religion. It was a new religion, a CHANGE in religion, that increased the turmoil. Just like the turmoil is increasing in the U.S. with its increasing establishment of a new religion, atheism, and all the lack of traditional morals and earth worship that go along with it.

quote:
Weakening of the Roman legions

Unable to recruit enough soldiers from the Roman citizenry, emperors like Diocletian and Constantine began hiring foreign mercenaries to prop up their armies.


Do you remember the reference by someone, can't remember who, earlier in this thread that claimed illegal immigrants were legally in the current U.S. military?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Theodoric, posted 03-11-2017 9:59 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5772
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 9.6


Message 140 of 169 (802070)
03-11-2017 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by marc9000
03-11-2017 9:15 PM


Re: Roman Empire
I want an honest debate with an honest debater. I will look elsewhere.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by marc9000, posted 03-11-2017 9:15 PM marc9000 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by marc9000, posted 03-11-2017 10:04 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
marc9000
Member (Idle past 30 days)
Posts: 906
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


Message 141 of 169 (802071)
03-11-2017 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Theodoric
03-11-2017 9:59 AM


Re: there are no "illegal" people
https://prezi.com/...the-top-10-reasons-for-the-fall-of-rome

This one largely agrees with the previous one, but this one includes the lead poisoning one, so I'll address that;

quote:
Since they were constantly consuming lead in wine and in other forms many Romans were dying. The excessive drinking made them all exposed to lead in their bodies, ultimately killing and poisoning them.

Wine? Excessive drinking? Maybe the problem was more with drunkenness than it was with lead in water. Does the U.S. today have a bigger and bigger appetite for drinking, and more importantly, illegal drugs resulting in overdoses?

Seems like I saw a reference to increases in gambling in the later days of the Roman Empire too. Have you noticed an increase in legalized gambling in the U.S. recently? I can easily remember when there was no such thing as state lotteries in the U.S.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Theodoric, posted 03-11-2017 9:59 AM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Theodoric, posted 03-11-2017 10:12 PM marc9000 has not yet responded
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marc9000
Member (Idle past 30 days)
Posts: 906
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


Message 142 of 169 (802073)
03-11-2017 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Theodoric
03-11-2017 9:57 PM


Re: Roman Empire
I want an honest debate with an honest debater. I will look elsewhere.

Thank you. I'm sure NoNukes will be highly amused at the way you smoked me.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Theodoric, posted 03-11-2017 9:57 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by NoNukes, posted 03-12-2017 1:44 AM marc9000 has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5772
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 9.6


Message 143 of 169 (802074)
03-11-2017 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by marc9000
03-11-2017 10:03 PM


the gallop continues
So your reason for the fall of the Roman Empire and it's comparison to the USA is a gish gallop. Why am I not surprised?

Edited by Theodoric, : New sub

Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by marc9000, posted 03-11-2017 10:03 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1024
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 144 of 169 (802076)
03-11-2017 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by jar
03-11-2017 4:50 PM


Re: For the record I find this Roman QUOTE debate END QUOTE to be an exercise in ignoranc
Notice that Theodoric expressed agreement with Jar when he told me my Roman Empire stuff is off topic. AMAZING since I initially only posted a small post of a few sentences, in response to Marc, then was attacked in no less than 3 posts by Theodoric and NoNukes. They have kept posting ever since. Even after post 136 and the Theodoric avreement click. Amazing. Just amazing. I always considered much complAining around here to be sneaky and tactical but this is blatantly obvious to the extreme.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by jar, posted 03-11-2017 4:50 PM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Theodoric, posted 03-12-2017 8:57 AM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded
 Message 157 by marc9000, posted 03-12-2017 12:42 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10115
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 145 of 169 (802077)
03-12-2017 1:44 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by marc9000
03-11-2017 10:04 PM


Re: Roman Empire
Thank you. I'm sure NoNukes will be highly amused at the way you smoked me

I did not say that Theodoric had smoked you. What I said was that Theodoric correctly called you when you claimed to know how the Roman Empire ended in your attempt to make some point about the decline of the US. Given that nobody knows the proximate cause of the fall of the Roman Empire, it does not take much citing of facts to prove you are blowing smoke.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 26703
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 146 of 169 (802078)
03-12-2017 5:41 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by marc9000
03-11-2017 9:54 PM


Rome didn't fall in a day
Hi Marc,
Interesting discussion.
Just want to add to the mix of causes of the fall of the Roman Empire something I recently learned, about the role of Islam in its destructive march across Europe from the seventh century to 1924. This comes from the studies of Bill Warner, and I'll post a video reference below when I figure out where it starts.

To include this in the mix means considering that the Roman Empire didn't fall as rapidly as is sometimes supposed, or as early, but there isn't anything all that hard and fast about when it fell anyway. The usual date I've seen is 476 when the last emperor was replaced by a German conqueror, but as Warner points out, the barbarians weren't out to destroy the Empire as much as they wanted to become its leaders and reap its benefits. So Warner moves the fall up to the seventh century march of the Islamic Caliphate as the main cause.

Whether or not that should be considered the major cause as he considers it to be, I found his demonstration of the 548 conquests by Islam to be explanatory of a lot of destruction that for some reason we don't get in our histories. At its height Islam had conquered MORE territory than the Roman Empire ever covered. And we don't hear about this? Warner claims it ended "classical Christian civilization" and was the cause of the Dark Ages. We do know that the Middle East was predominantly Christian before Islam -- BIG change. I'll let historians sort all that out but the series of conquests he demonstrates needs to be added to the mix of the overall shaping of Europe in any case.

The relevance to the topic is of course that Islam today hasn't stopped its drive to conquer the world, though it's conquering as much by hejira* -- (by stealth you could say, but only because of the stupidity of its victims) --as by jihad. The denial of the history of the Caliphate in Europe is a dangerous thing. But the Left today seems bent on suicide. Too bad they want to take us all down with them.
/
Here's Warner showing 548 conquests of Europe by Islam. Start about 11:00.
/
/

======
*migration


This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by marc9000, posted 03-11-2017 9:54 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by LamarkNewAge, posted 03-12-2017 6:03 AM Faith has responded
 Message 149 by PaulK, posted 03-12-2017 6:09 AM Faith has responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1024
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 147 of 169 (802081)
03-12-2017 6:03 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by Faith
03-12-2017 5:41 AM


Re: Rome didnt fall in a day
Faith it is mainstream for historians to attribute the losses of the 7th centuHHafizheretic century to heretic Christians getting fed up with persecution by their Orthodox mastersTTheat that doesn't mean people here know it though. To
This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Faith, posted 03-12-2017 5:41 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 26703
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 148 of 169 (802082)
03-12-2017 6:06 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by LamarkNewAge
03-12-2017 6:03 AM


Re: Rome didnt fall in a day
Sorry, NO idea what you are saying.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by LamarkNewAge, posted 03-12-2017 6:03 AM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13367
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 149 of 169 (802083)
03-12-2017 6:09 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by Faith
03-12-2017 5:41 AM


Re: Rome didn't fall in a day
548 is before Muhammad was born. What is the correct date ?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Faith, posted 03-12-2017 5:41 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Faith, posted 03-12-2017 6:18 AM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26703
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 150 of 169 (802084)
03-12-2017 6:18 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by PaulK
03-12-2017 6:09 AM


Re: Rome didn't fall in a day
548 isn't a date, it's the number of conquests of various locations by the Islamic Caliphate, starting in the middle of the seventh century.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by PaulK, posted 03-12-2017 6:09 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by PaulK, posted 03-12-2017 6:35 AM Faith has responded

    
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