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Author Topic:   Questions based on a plain and simple reading of the US Constitution
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 46 of 169 (800565)
02-26-2017 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by marc9000
02-25-2017 11:24 PM


No it's not clear at all, if you include the first sentence, realize that where you started actually follows it, and then take into consideration what was going on in the U.S. at the time the 14th amendment was written. This amendment was adopted in 1868, it was written explicitly concerning the end of slavery. The only "persons" it was actually referring to that were not "born or naturalized" in the U.S. were other former slaves who were dragged here against their will from Africa. It's dishonest, revisionist history to claim that those who worded the 14th amendment had later, undocumented immigrants in mind when they were referring to "persons". Sure, activist courts later on agreed with you, that's how the "living, breathing" Constitution is today a shadow of its original intent.
What the original framers intended can be inferred all you like, and of course it is useful to understand. However, they had the opportunity to write the amendment be explicit and very temporally based and say 'former slaves'. Instead they used 'persons'. This includes all persons - 'any person'. There were people in the US that were there who were not former slaves nor US citizens. Traders, government officials, visitors and immigrants among them.
If you want there to be an exception for undocumented workers, you just need a new amendment. Until then, as written, you are wrong. The courts disagree with you, and both Conservative and Liberals agree the courts' interpretation is the interpretation that counts, legally. There are some exceptions to this, but I think the consensus is that you are wrong.
How much of your tax dollars go to support illegal immigrants? Do you know?
Illegal Immigrants To Get Billions In Tax Credits Under Obama's Amnesty
I assume those billions are not coming exclusively out of your pocket. Let's do some simple maths.
4,000 million for tax credits.
300 million people
Assuming everyone's tax burden is the same that would make your annual contribution about 40/3 dollars or about $13.
When we include ACTC - that pushes it up to $26-30. That's more than $2 a month!
What I CAN'T BEGIN TO UNDERSTAND is why so many of you are so happy at the flood of immigration coming into this country.
I'm not sure 1 - 2 million a year net is a flood.
How do you think it will benefit you? How do you think it will benefit the country?
More people means more work gets done, enriching both US citizens and the economy. There are diminishing returns and upper limits - but the US is a big place, there's a while to go yet.
Won't it be a competition for the free stuff?
Liberals, despite your characterisation aren't trying to get 'free stuff'. And no, migrants on the whole put more into the economy than they take out. Even the illegals contribute by taking the money they earn working and spending it on stuff - to the benefit of domestic commerce and paying sales tax as well.
I know you feel sorry for the poor dears, that they really need us, and all of that. But don't you see the other pressing problems this country has?
The 'poor dears' would be the refugees. Yes, I feel sorry for them. The attitude you are broadcasting was directed at the Jews in the 30s and 40s. You should have felt sorry for them, but instead they died.
As for other pressing problems - well that's the point isn't it? There are other pressing problems. Immigration isn't really as big a concern as all that. The way the right act and talk its a HUGE problem and spending an additional 10,000 x $50,000 (or whatever their salary is) on ICE agents for $500,000,000 a year is not really the best use of your money. The illegal immigrants in California contribute about $3 billion in tax money - $12 billion nationally (Institute on Taxation & Economic Policy).
Given the US military's recent spectacular successes, you could look to cut some money from that $900 billion funding it receives (talk about BIG government!). The 'tremendous' alleged cost of illegal immigrants could easily be offset I'd have thought.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by marc9000, posted 02-25-2017 11:24 PM marc9000 has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 47 of 169 (800573)
02-26-2017 6:43 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by marc9000
02-25-2017 11:30 PM


Immigrants make America better
marc writes:
Why do you like illegal immigrants being here? That's what I'd love to know.
Immigrants, whether here legally or illegally are for the most part great neighbors. They work hard to make a better life for themselves and their children, increase our diversity, obey the laws, pay taxes, help create a better America.
It really is that simple.
Edited by jar, : fix sub-title

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by marc9000, posted 02-25-2017 11:30 PM marc9000 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Faith, posted 02-26-2017 8:25 AM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 48 of 169 (800583)
02-26-2017 8:25 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by jar
02-26-2017 6:43 AM


Re: Immigrants make America better
ILLEGAL immigrants CANNOT make America better. For one thing they include criminals because they haven't been screened. For another their very illegality contributes to the erosion of the law. They are an offense to all those who have come here legally, who are not happy about it. You are just pushing a crazed form of self-justifying propaganda.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by jar, posted 02-26-2017 6:43 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by jar, posted 02-26-2017 8:33 AM Faith has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 49 of 169 (800584)
02-26-2017 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by marc9000
02-25-2017 11:30 PM


there are no "illegal" people
When you go to a foreign country (assuming you do) do you desire to be treated as
A.An American citizen entitled to special privileges such as openly bearing arms and freely saying whatever you want, or
No.
Good start.
B.A person with the same legal rights of the citizens of that country, or
If I'm there legally, yes.
C.A lesser person, someone that can be tossed in prison for no reason and with no recourse to justice.
If I'm there illegally, yes.
Fascinating. So if I'm a "legal" visitor to a country and then commit a felony, I should be entitled to a higher legal status than an "illegal" visitor that has committed no crime once in the country (being undocumented is a misdemeanor not a felony).
Curiously, I think it is important to give anyone the same level of justice and treatment regardless of the purported crime, so I vehemently disagree with you on (C) - there are no "lesser people". I also happen to believe that "and justice for all" means an equal and fair treatment of people under the law. How we Americans treat others is a reflection of how well we abide by our founding principles -- is it real or is it lip service?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Why do you like illegal immigrants being here? That's what I'd love to know.
To begin with people can't be "illegal" -- they can commit illegal acts, but even then they are considered innocent until proven guilty. We don't hear people talking about an American committing theft as being an "illegal" person.
The term you need is "undocumented" which is a broader category with a lot of nuances. The "Dreamer" kids are undocumented, but they were brought by parents -- the only crime they committed was being born on the wrong side of the border and staying with their family.
Why do you like illegal immigrants being here? That's what I'd love to know.
Because this is the land of the free and the home of the brave, because America is (or was) a beacon of hope for people around the world. Because America prided itself once on being a land for refugees to come and seek asylum from horrors of war and famine in other countries.
Because they are human beings with human rights.
So I expect people to come to America to find their dreams, and that the more desperate they are, the more willing they will be to use whatever means possible to get here. Because that is what people do when they can no longer live in their home country. I accept that as part of the price of being a land of freedom and liberty and justice and equality ... not just words ( ... that ALL men are created equal, with certain inalienable rights ... with liberty and justice for all).
Because I believe in a borderless world. When I grew up in Michigan we could cross the border to Canada with a cursory crossing, no documents required. Canadian coins and US coins were freely intermingled in our pockets.
But the US has become increasingly paranoid and xenophobic and afraid of their own shadows to the point it is no longer the land of the free and the home of the brave, but the land of closed doors and the home of the scared.
Why do you like illegal immigrants being here? That's what I'd love to know.
Because I believe the problem is in the regulations, not the people.
Because every time states have tried to do without immigrants their crops rot in the fields because very few American will dirty their hands picking them. Georgia and Alabama tried it, the crops rotted in the fields.
Because undocumented workers contribute to the economy in big ways, not just in the products of their labor, but in their consumption of goods -- the economy is made by the movement of money, not holding on to it, and the more people there are moving money from one pocket to the next the better the economy is.
So in closing I would say because they are human beings, and their being in this country enriches it.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : .

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by marc9000, posted 02-25-2017 11:30 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by marc9000, posted 02-27-2017 10:13 PM RAZD has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(3)
Message 50 of 169 (800585)
02-26-2017 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Faith
02-26-2017 8:25 AM


Re: Immigrants make America better
Faith writes:
ILLEGAL immigrants CANNOT make America better.
Of course they can and in fact they do. A great example is the mother of two, married and living in the US for over 20 years, who held a job, raised a family, paid taxes, educated her children and followed the law who got arrested and then deported when she obeyed the law.
Faith writes:
For one thing they include criminals because they haven't been screened.
Sorry but that is a truly stupid statement. Not being screened does not mean they are criminals.
Faith writes:
For another their very illegality contributes to the erosion of the law.
That's the same stupid assertion you make about same sex marriage. Sorry but simply bullshit Faith.
Faith writes:
They are an offense to all those who have come here legally, who are not happy about it.
That is another stupid assertion. Being unhappy is not a justification for either removing due process or discrimination.
Faith writes:
You are just pushing a crazed form of self-justifying propaganda.
Am I?
They work hard to make a better life for themselves and their children, increase our diversity, obey the laws, pay taxes, help create a better America.
How are those facts self-justifying propaganda?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Faith, posted 02-26-2017 8:25 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Faith, posted 02-26-2017 4:29 PM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 51 of 169 (800650)
02-26-2017 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by jar
02-26-2017 8:33 AM


Re: Immigrants make America better
Sorry, there are definitely illegal immigrants who do NOT make America better. All the Hispanic gangs for instance.
Your post is an amazing collection of stupid attempts to turn what I said upside down, but everything I said stands. LEGAL immigrants ARE offended by the lawless attitude that allows the illegals to stay. And of COURSE you have to make it sound like I said they are ALL criminals, of course, just like a lying Leftist, like all those who did that to Trump when he talked about the illegal rapists. And of COURSE illegality contributes to the erosion of the law, meaning of course the rule of law, in the minds of both American citizens and illegals, how could it not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by jar, posted 02-26-2017 8:33 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by NoNukes, posted 02-26-2017 5:15 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 54 by Theodoric, posted 02-26-2017 5:16 PM Faith has replied
 Message 57 by jar, posted 02-26-2017 5:41 PM Faith has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 52 of 169 (800656)
02-26-2017 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by marc9000
02-25-2017 11:24 PM


Many conservative constitutional scholars consider all the amendments from number 11 on to be not quite as much as the first 10.
Who are these scholars? Please show some of their arguments. The reasoning behind that one statement is stupendously ignorant. Where in the Constitution does it say just the first 10 amendments are important? You do realize the founders put in a specific procedure to amend the Constitution.
Won't it be a competition for the free stuff?
What free stuff? If you were not so blinded by hate you would do actual research and see that immigrants actually pay more in taxes than they take out in benefits. Non documented immigrants even more so. They are actually subsidizing your lifestyle.
Edited by Theodoric, : Founders spelling

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by marc9000, posted 02-25-2017 11:24 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by marc9000, posted 02-27-2017 10:22 PM Theodoric has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 169 (800657)
02-26-2017 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Faith
02-26-2017 4:29 PM


Re: Immigrants make America better
Jar writes:
Of course they can and in fact they do. A great example is the mother of two, married and living in the US for over 20 years, who held a job, raised a family, paid taxes, educated her children and followed the law who got arrested and then deported when she obeyed the law.
Faith writes:
Sorry, there are definitely illegal immigrants who do NOT make America better. All the Hispanic gangs for instance.
Your statement is not a rebuttal. Plenty of folks whose status is illegal do in fact contribute to society. The fact that their status is illegal is really not a huge consequence. For example, Trump has indicated that if left to his own device he would not kick DARE folks out of the country.
And of COURSE illegality contributes to the erosion of the law, meaning of course the rule of law, in the minds of both American citizens and illegals, how could it not?
Some things are illegal because they are evil in and of themselves, while other things are evil only because we have chosen to disallow them. Given the history of immigration into this country, it is impossible to argue that illegal immigration fits into the category of things illegal because they constitute evil without judging our forefathers. Personally, I cannot judge harshly a man or woman who commits an illegal but non evil act for the purpose of giving his family a better life, or avoiding persecution, or seeking religious freedom, particularly when he causes no harm once he is here.
LEGAL immigrants ARE offended by the lawless attitude that allows the illegals to stay.
Some are and some are not. In general, I think you will find that many and likely most immigrants are not all that enamored of the treatment their less fortunate brothers are getting.
ike all those who did that to Trump when he talked about the illegal rapists
"And some, And some, I assume, are good people".
Why is it that some folks do not find this clarification by Trump to be damning? I remember thinking back in the early 2000's that it was the neo-cons who were the bottom tier among wing-nuts. How naive I was!

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Faith, posted 02-26-2017 4:29 PM Faith has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 54 of 169 (800658)
02-26-2017 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Faith
02-26-2017 4:29 PM


Re: Immigrants make America better
All the Hispanic gangs for instance.
Like the white skinhead gangs, Aryan brotherhood, Peckerwoods, russian mobs?
Your post is an amazing racist rant.
The vast majority of immigrants are law abiding. The vast majority of undocumented immigrants are law abiding. They want to and need to stay under the radar.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Faith, posted 02-26-2017 4:29 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Faith, posted 02-26-2017 5:18 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 55 of 169 (800659)
02-26-2017 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Theodoric
02-26-2017 5:16 PM


Re: Immigrants make America better
Oooooooo typical PC, how original. Oh, and "Hispanic gangs" suggests "most" illegals? Ooooooo another typical misrepresentation.
We can deport illegals, we have to deal with homegrown gangs some other way. Duh.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Theodoric, posted 02-26-2017 5:16 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Theodoric, posted 02-26-2017 8:15 PM Faith has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 56 of 169 (800660)
02-26-2017 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by marc9000
02-25-2017 11:24 PM


"Just as much"? Many conservative constitutional scholars consider all the amendments from number 11 on to be not quite as much as the first 10. Those, distorted by activist courts in later years, are how revisionist history gets written.
Someone who ignores amendments to the constitution is not much of a scholar. But in particular, a scholar inclined to discount amendments 13-15 is likely a racist as well. In the case of the amendment under discussion, as has been demonstrated, the extension to non-citizens was first upheld by the Supreme Court in 1886 and again several more times during the 19th century.
Your observation that the amendments to the constitution "revise" its meaning is true, but such observations do not constitute any kind of argument whatsoever about the current state of the law. They just tell us that you no longer like the constitution. That's why folks rightly ask, "Why do wingnuts hate America"?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by marc9000, posted 02-25-2017 11:24 PM marc9000 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Theodoric, posted 02-26-2017 8:34 PM NoNukes has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 57 of 169 (800661)
02-26-2017 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Faith
02-26-2017 4:29 PM


Re: Immigrants make America better
Faith writes:
Sorry, there are definitely illegal immigrants who do NOT make America better. All the Hispanic gangs for instance.
Another utterly stupid comment from you Faith. Hispanic gangs are made up of members that are US citizens and immigrants (legal and illegal) and even folk that are from countries other than Mexico.
Yes, often gangs do not make things better but that has absolutely nothing to do with the issue of immigration.
Faith writes:
LEGAL immigrants ARE offended by the lawless attitude that allows the illegals to stay.
Another utterly irrelevant and inane comment Faith. Do you really think the husband of the woman that was deported or her two children was offended that his wife was here illegally?
Faith writes:
And of COURSE you have to make it sound like I said they are ALL criminals, of course, just like a lying Leftist, like all those who did that to Trump when he talked about the illegal rapists.
Oh, poor baby. But another really inane comment from you. The truth is that rape is bad and it does not matter whether the rapist is a citizen or legal immigrant or illegal immigrant.
The problem is that Trump used the ignorance and prejudices of his Fellow Travelers to connect immigration and rape when there are no statistics that show immigrants are as great a rape threat and US born Christian citizens.
Some laws should be broken, those laws that discriminate unjustly against minorities as an example. That is how the Rule of Law evolves (just like living things).

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Faith, posted 02-26-2017 4:29 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Faith, posted 02-26-2017 7:41 PM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 58 of 169 (800675)
02-26-2017 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by jar
02-26-2017 5:41 PM


Re: Immigrants make America better
Some laws should be broken, those laws that discriminate unjustly against minorities as an example. That is how the Rule of Law evolves (just like living things).
How wrong you are. That way leads to anarchy and to such criminal gangs as Black Lives Matter, and it's absolutely opposed to Martin Luther King's dream.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by jar, posted 02-26-2017 5:41 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by jar, posted 02-26-2017 8:06 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 62 by Modulous, posted 02-26-2017 8:31 PM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 59 of 169 (800677)
02-26-2017 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Faith
02-26-2017 7:41 PM


Re: Immigrants make America better
Faith writes:
That way leads to anarchy and to such criminal gangs as Black Lives Matter, and it's absolutely opposed to Martin Luther King's dream.
There you go again making unsupported assertions like asserting that Black Live Matter is a criminal gang.
But the big issues is that Black Lives Matter has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that immigrants in the US legally or illegally still have rights under the US Constitution and the Courts have held the Trump's Executive order violated those rights.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Faith, posted 02-26-2017 7:41 PM Faith has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 60 of 169 (800680)
02-26-2017 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Faith
02-26-2017 5:18 PM


Re: Immigrants make America better
Why did you choose Hispanic gangs if you were not making a racist comment? Why are they worse than white gangs?
Your racism is showing and it is not pretty. I know hundreds of Hispanics. 99.9% are citizens or in the US legally. Only two that I know are associated with gangs.
I know at least 5 that are in law enforcement, 3 lawyers, 1 judge. So tell me how Hispanics are less law abiding than whites.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Faith, posted 02-26-2017 5:18 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Faith, posted 02-26-2017 8:30 PM Theodoric has replied

  
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