Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 114 (8734 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 03-27-2017 2:21 PM
449 online now:
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: timtak
Post Volume:
Total: 802,017 Year: 6,623/21,208 Month: 2,384/2,634 Week: 47/525 Day: 22/25 Hour: 3/3


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1
...
78
9
101112Next
Author Topic:   Questions based on a plain and simple reading of the US Constitution
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 641
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 121 of 169 (801834)
03-09-2017 9:57 PM


quick post
I am presently not in possession of a computer and my phone is so small that I can't reAlly type much. I am Yauch a friends online which is larger but still tough. Little touch screen keys. World Book Encyclopedia ARIANISM Quote The Council of Council of Constantinople condemned Arianism as heresy in 381 and it quickly disappeared within the Roman Empire. But followers of Arianism remained active outside the Empire. Arian missionaries converted the German tribes of Northern Europe to Christianity during the 300s and 400s. After these tribes invaded the Roman Empire, they reintroduced Arianism. CLOSE QUOTE ...... Now in 395 the declining Roman Empire split in Eastern and western Halfs. The Arian Alaric invaded Italy in 401and took Rome in 410. This typing is too difficult but I can suggest that folks study the Persian invasions of Palestine from 614 to 638 and thehuge Jewish forces allied to invade Asia Minor and Syria. Western Roman Empire fell due to Syrian Christian forces supporting Arab Muslim invaders from within. Look at invasion of Egypt and Coptic issues. This is my last attempt to use phone. Later.
    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 641
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 122 of 169 (801835)
03-09-2017 10:54 PM


one more Lil post
World Book Encyclopedia AFRICA. QUOTE AGermanic tribe called the Vandals invaded the empire during the 400s. The tribe followed an outlawed Christian belief called Arianism. The Vandals ended Roman rule along most of the north coast. END QUOTE. Now a new book. THE MIDDLE AGES VOLUME II. Quote. what Gibbon referred to as the world's great debate will never end because we lack the evidence for a real solution. For the whole period from the third to the ninth century there are gaps.... Too much of the research so far has been done by specialists in western history using the evidence of western Europe and viewing the problemthrough western eyes. For a truer perspective there must be greater focus on Arab and Byzantine evidence. END QUOTE. Now the context wasn't the fall of Rome here in the latter quote but the methodology applies equally. Rome ran out pacifists like Manichean's and more militant heretics alike. The latter were the bigger Problem.
    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5700
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 123 of 169 (801836)
03-09-2017 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by marc9000
03-09-2017 9:39 PM


Re: there are no "illegal" people
So nothing like Rome.
Thanks for clarifying. Maybe you should stop using that comparison.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by marc9000, posted 03-09-2017 9:39 PM marc9000 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by marc9000, posted 03-10-2017 8:14 PM Theodoric has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9328
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 124 of 169 (801837)
03-09-2017 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by marc9000
03-09-2017 8:02 PM


Re: Roman Empire
Yet so far he has presented none.

Maybe not, but on the other hand, he is not the poster pretending to teach us history lessons based on a subject he knows nothing about. So far that appears to be the plan you and LNA are following.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by marc9000, posted 03-09-2017 8:02 PM marc9000 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by LamarkNewAge, posted 03-09-2017 11:44 PM NoNukes has responded
 Message 128 by marc9000, posted 03-10-2017 8:18 PM NoNukes has responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 641
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 125 of 169 (801841)
03-09-2017 11:44 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by NoNukes
03-09-2017 11:20 PM


NoNukes knows what he chooses and ignores the rest
Do you understand that you have a situation from 400 to 600 when the Pope marked arians for death while various local emperors were the hated Arians themselves NOT TO MENTION MUCH

rOMAN POPULATION. WHat was the adhesive NoNukes has to deny that this was in effect the insurmountable PROBLEM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by NoNukes, posted 03-09-2017 11:20 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by NoNukes, posted 03-10-2017 12:07 AM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9328
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 126 of 169 (801844)
03-10-2017 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by LamarkNewAge
03-09-2017 11:44 PM


Re: NoNukes knows what he chooses and ignores the rest
WHat was the adhesive NoNukes has to deny that this was in effect the insurmountable PROBLEM

Take your time and ask me a question that makes some sense. I'd prefer that the question actually relate to the topic at hand.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by LamarkNewAge, posted 03-09-2017 11:44 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

    
marc9000
Member
Posts: 816
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 127 of 169 (801987)
03-10-2017 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Theodoric
03-09-2017 11:02 PM


Re: there are no "illegal" people
So nothing like Rome.
Thanks for clarifying. Maybe you should stop using that comparison.

Nothing like Rome? Here's a couple of lines from my message 120 that you dismiss;

quote:
Many believe that a comparable [TO ROME] long, slow process is happening now in the U.S. Many believe that comparable, barbaric invasions could happen in the U.S. if liberals have their way with wide open borders. Many believe that the U.S. could become a shadow of its former self, if it continues taking for granted its existence, like many Romans did 2000 years ago.

So I "clarified" that the U.S. was "nothing like Rome" in that paragraph?

quote:
I believe the U.S. is in decline. And I think the laziness and carelessness that's causing it could be very comparable to the Roman Empire becoming a shadow of its former self.

What do you think about him, NoNukes? He didn't see any reference to Rome there.

Here's another comparison to the U.S. of today with Rome of 2000 years ago;

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/...-roman-empire-fell-1907

And a partial quote from his link;

quote:
Take for instance the third century A.D. (200s) Ralph Martin Novak, author of "Christianity and the Roman Empire," provides a sobering statistic of third century Rome which serves as a warning to our U.S. government. "It is estimated that whereas at the start of the third century A.D. the Roman emperors employed only about 300 to 350 full-time individuals in administering the Empire, by 300 A.D. this number had grown to some 30,000 or 35,000 people.

The central government of the Roman Empire had become so bureaucratic and top heavy that in order to sustain it the sources of wealth ran dry through heavy taxation. Caesar and the Roman Senate had ceased to be an instrument of service to the people. Instead, they made themselves an end in itself.


How do you think the Roman government's size multiplying by 10 compares with how the U.S. government's size has multiplied over the past 50 years?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Theodoric, posted 03-09-2017 11:02 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Theodoric, posted 03-11-2017 9:59 AM marc9000 has responded

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 816
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 128 of 169 (801988)
03-10-2017 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by NoNukes
03-09-2017 11:20 PM


Re: Roman Empire
marc the great writes:

Yet so far he has presented none.

Maybe not, but on the other hand, he is not the poster pretending to teach us history lessons based on a subject he knows nothing about. So far that appears to be the plan you and LNA are following.

What makes it appear that way? What evidence do you have that he knows more, and is more capable of researching, the history of the Roman empire, than am I? Just because you and him share worldviews, that makes him more likely to know more about history than me?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by NoNukes, posted 03-09-2017 11:20 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by NoNukes, posted 03-10-2017 9:29 PM marc9000 has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9328
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 129 of 169 (801990)
03-10-2017 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by marc9000
03-10-2017 8:18 PM


Re: Roman Empire
What makes it appear that way? What evidence do you have that he knows more

You are not reading what I wrote. I don't have any comment on what Theodoric wrote, because he is primarily asking you to back up what you are saying. My statement is directed towards you and LNA and the claims you are making. I still wish he had let the two of you pile up a bunch of crap before weighing in, because I was enjoying the entertainment value.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by marc9000, posted 03-10-2017 8:18 PM marc9000 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by marc9000, posted 03-10-2017 10:00 PM NoNukes has responded

    
marc9000
Member
Posts: 816
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 130 of 169 (801991)
03-10-2017 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by NoNukes
03-10-2017 9:29 PM


Re: Roman Empire
You are not reading what I wrote.

Oh no I read exactly what you wrote. Let's look at it again;

Maybe not, but on the other hand, he is not the poster pretending to teach us history lessons based on a subject he knows nothing about. So far that appears to be the plan you and LNA are following.

You said he IS NOT the poster pretending to teach us history lessons based on a subject he knows nothing about, yet he has shown no detailed knowledge of the subject whatsoever.

I don't have any comment on what Theodoric wrote, because he is primarily asking you to back up what you are saying.

He strongly implied that he knows a lot about the Roman empire. By saying he IS NOT pretending to teach us blah blah, you assigned a knowledge you believe he has that you don't believe I have, yet I, like Theodoric, have barely started addressing the subject in detail.

My statement is directed towards you and LNA and the claims you are making.

Yet you make no statement towards him and the claims he is making.

I still wish he had let the two of you pile up a bunch of crap before weighing in, because I was enjoying the entertainment value.

Well as you can see, I "piled up" a few comparisons of what happened in Rome versus what could happen in the U.S. today, (message 120) and he couldn't see any reference to the Roman government at all, even the word "ROMAN" actually appeared in what I wrote. I even pointed that out to you, and you ignored it.

So I'm getting plenty of entertainment value too! Did my examples of the increases in the Roman government (message 127) shorty before it fell as they compare to the recent increases in U.S. government also entertain you?

Edited by marc9000, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by NoNukes, posted 03-10-2017 9:29 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by NoNukes, posted 03-10-2017 10:46 PM marc9000 has not yet responded
 Message 132 by Theodoric, posted 03-11-2017 9:24 AM marc9000 has responded
 Message 133 by Theodoric, posted 03-11-2017 9:36 AM marc9000 has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9328
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 131 of 169 (801993)
03-10-2017 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by marc9000
03-10-2017 10:00 PM


Re: Roman Empire
You said he IS NOT the poster pretending to teach us history lessons based on a subject he knows nothing about, yet he has shown no detailed knowledge of the subject whatsoever.

You are that poster. How much more clearly must I say that?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by marc9000, posted 03-10-2017 10:00 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5700
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 132 of 169 (802013)
03-11-2017 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by marc9000
03-10-2017 10:00 PM


Re: Roman Empire
I asked you repeatedly to back up your arguments with evidence and all you have done is attack me. If you can support your arguments with actual facts and analysis then do it. If not stop the whole Roman comparison. Anyone can make a claim that the US is a modern collapsing comparison to Rome but all you have presented is facile assertions. Most of which seem to be a gross misunderstanding of the actual end of the Roman Empire.

If you want to actually proceed down this road, your first requirement is to define what you believe constitutes the end of the empire. Once you do that we can go from there.

I have never claimed to know more about the Roman empire than you. To do so would be silly. I know nothing about your academic background and you know nothing about mine. Also, academic credentials are not the only source of expertise. Extensive subject matter knowledge can be achieved through personal research and reading. I would have more respect for someone that can show subject matter expertise rather than a person with a PhD in an unrelated subject. That being said I can point to a number of books on the subject. There are a few general historical surveys that are quite good and also a few good fairly technical looks at the subject. Most should be available through a public library system or online.

I will let your arguments and analysis rest on their own(laurels?).


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by marc9000, posted 03-10-2017 10:00 PM marc9000 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by marc9000, posted 03-11-2017 9:02 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5700
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 133 of 169 (802014)
03-11-2017 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by marc9000
03-10-2017 10:00 PM


Re: Roman Empire
Well as you can see, I "piled up" a few comparisons of what happened in Rome versus what could happen in the U.S. today, (message 120) and he couldn't see any reference to the Roman government at all, even the word "ROMAN" actually appeared in what I wrote.

Are you actually claiming you have no idea what sarcasm is? Also, please stop misrepresenting what I post. It destroys your argument and makes you look petty and foolish.
I never said I could not see any reference to the Roman government at all.

me writes:

So nothing like Rome.

I was showing that your post gave us nothing to show that the USA is like the Roman empire. Your need to build a strawman and misrepresent my argument shows you are a dishonest debater and that you have no confidence in the merits of your own argument.

If you want to have an honest debate I will gladly take up the challenge, with facts, data and analysis. If you want to continue down the road of dishonesty, than good day sir.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by marc9000, posted 03-10-2017 10:00 PM marc9000 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by marc9000, posted 03-11-2017 9:15 PM Theodoric has responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5700
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 134 of 169 (802016)
03-11-2017 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by marc9000
03-10-2017 8:14 PM


Re: there are no "illegal" people
Earlier you intimated that barabarian invasions were responsible for the the fall(hmm the USA has not been invaded), now it is the number of bureaucrats?

Your link does not provide original source. I will try to find original source. Numbers seem a bit off, but not sure. Context means everything.

ABE
300 CE does not put things near the end of the empire.

Edited by Theodoric, : Thought


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by marc9000, posted 03-10-2017 8:14 PM marc9000 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by marc9000, posted 03-11-2017 9:54 PM Theodoric has not yet responded
 Message 141 by marc9000, posted 03-11-2017 10:03 PM Theodoric has responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 641
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 135 of 169 (802053)
03-11-2017 4:08 PM


For the record I find this Roman QUOTE debate END QUOTE to be an exercise in ignoranc
It seems that nobody here understands that population was on the severe decline in the time before 410 and it only got much much worse after. I don't know how to do quotes on a phone, plus typing is very hard. Web surfing is harder too. I will back up my claims with sources that pagans Manichean's and Ariana were expelled after 380 but somehow I think the evidence will be lost on this group. Monday perhaps
Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by jar, posted 03-11-2017 4:50 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

    
Prev1
...
78
9
101112Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017