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Author Topic:   The Totalitarian Leftist Tactics against the Right
JonF
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Posts: 3962
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 886 of 960 (814693)
07-11-2017 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 881 by Faith
07-11-2017 8:31 PM


Re: Nobody said there is *no* evidence of collusion
Lindsey Graham, well-known Republican war-hawk Senator, put it well:

"Anytime you're in a campaign and you get an offer from a foreign government to help your campaign, the answer is no."

Setup or not, do you approve of Don Jr. attempting to get Russian government intelligence gained by spying on the US?

Of course you do! IOIYAR.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 881 by Faith, posted 07-11-2017 8:31 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 887 by Faith, posted 07-11-2017 9:30 PM JonF has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26306
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 887 of 960 (814696)
07-11-2017 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 886 by JonF
07-11-2017 9:21 PM


Re: Nobody said there is *no* evidence of collusion
I think it was unwise of him.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 886 by JonF, posted 07-11-2017 9:21 PM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9926
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 888 of 960 (814700)
07-11-2017 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 884 by JonF
07-11-2017 9:11 PM


Re: Nobody said there is *no* evidence of collusion
It's no setup. Unless, of course, you have evidence of such. Until then a criminal investigation is required.

Why would it matter if it was a setup?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
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Porosity
Member
Posts: 155
From: MT, USA
Joined: 06-15-2013
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 889 of 960 (814701)
07-11-2017 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 888 by NoNukes
07-11-2017 10:00 PM


Re: Nobody said there is *no* evidence of collusion
Why would it matter if it was a setup?

It shouldn't matter. It would be like John claiming innocence, saying the cops set up my meeting with a twelve year old while her parents are out.


This message is a reply to:
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JonF
Member
Posts: 3962
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 890 of 960 (814702)
07-11-2017 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 887 by Faith
07-11-2017 9:30 PM


Re: Nobody said there is *no* evidence of collusion
I think it was unwise of him

Merely unwise? How about the legal implications.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 887 by Faith, posted 07-11-2017 9:30 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 894 by Chiroptera, posted 07-12-2017 10:22 AM JonF has responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 3962
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 891 of 960 (814703)
07-11-2017 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 888 by NoNukes
07-11-2017 10:00 PM


Re: Nobody said there is *no* evidence of collusion
Why would it matter if it was a setup?

To rational humans, it wouldn't.

Faith obviously thinks it matters. It's just the usual knee-jerk hater reaction when her heroes have feet of clay. Probably criminal clay.

But, hey, IOIYAR.


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PaulK
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Posts: 13125
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


(3)
Message 892 of 960 (814707)
07-12-2017 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 881 by Faith
07-11-2017 8:31 PM


Re: Nobody said there is *no* evidence of collusion
Even if it was a set-up Trump jr loved - his word - the idea of getting illegal help from the Russian government. There was no element of coercion or anything else that would rise to the level of entrapment . Just the offer which he happily accepted, along with - it seems - Kushner and Manafort, both of whom were at the meeting.

And he lied about the purpose of the meeting when it was first raised. Which seems to be something of a habit in the Trump campaign.

Spin it how you like there is no doubt that this reflects very badly on the Trump campaign.


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JonF
Member
Posts: 3962
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 893 of 960 (814712)
07-12-2017 5:47 AM
Reply to: Message 892 by PaulK
07-12-2017 12:18 AM


Re: Nobody said there is *no* evidence of collusion
And he did not list the meeting on his application for a security clearance. And campaign representatives, including Mike pence, steadfastly denied any meetings between campaign staff and Russians.
This message is a reply to:
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Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6393
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 6.0


Message 894 of 960 (814715)
07-12-2017 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 890 by JonF
07-11-2017 10:18 PM


Re: Nobody said there is *no* evidence of collusion
How about the legal implications.

Legally, there may not be much here. According to the only one talking about the meeting itself (namely, Donald Jr), it turned out that the whole meeting was to talk about the Magnitsky Act.

I doubt that "intent to received hacked emails" rises to the same level of prosecutability as "conspiracy to murder", but I may be wrong.

More evidence may come to alight about what actually took place in the meeting itself that may lead to an indictment, but right now I'm thinking this is going to be a legal "nothing burger".

Far more important, of course, is the moral and ethical implications of going into this meeting. Imagine the Republicans' reaction if it was the Democrats that were meeting with a foreign representative (not that anyone can accuse US conservatives of moral consistency).

And this may end up being relevant to other parts of the Russia investigations going on now.

But I may be wrong; I don't spend my entire day glued to news sources, so it would be easy for relevant information to slip by me.


Patriotism is the excuse that countries give to themselves for their failures. Stephen Marche

This message is a reply to:
 Message 890 by JonF, posted 07-11-2017 10:18 PM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 895 by jar, posted 07-12-2017 10:33 AM Chiroptera has acknowledged this reply
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 Message 910 by NoNukes, posted 07-12-2017 6:46 PM Chiroptera has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29364
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 895 of 960 (814716)
07-12-2017 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 894 by Chiroptera
07-12-2017 10:22 AM


Same song-next verse
The issue is "What did the President know and when did he know it?"

Seems we have been down this path a few times during my lifetime.

Edited by jar, : fix sub-title


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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JonF
Member
Posts: 3962
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 896 of 960 (814725)
07-12-2017 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 894 by Chiroptera
07-12-2017 10:22 AM


Re: Nobody said there is *no* evidence of collusion
According to the only one talking about the meeting itself (namely, Donald Jr), it turned out that the whole meeting was to talk about the Magnitsky Act.

According to the emails he posted, he expected to meet an agent of the Russian government who had incriminating information about Hillary and receive that information. If that information is determined to be something of value, soliciting such information from a foreign national is a violation of the Federal Election Campaign Act. There are differing legal opinions on this particular case but it's definitely worth testing in a court of law.

Of course not mentioning his meeting on his original application for a security clearance is a felony.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 894 by Chiroptera, posted 07-12-2017 10:22 AM Chiroptera has responded

Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6393
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 6.0


Message 897 of 960 (814740)
07-12-2017 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 896 by JonF
07-12-2017 11:12 AM


Re: Nobody said there is *no* evidence of collusion
There are differing legal opinions on this particular case but it's definitely worth testing in a court of law.

To test it, there has to be a prosecutor willing to press charges. I admit this is only a guess, but unless something more comes up, I doubt that will happen.

'Course something more might come up as this is investigated further, but right now I'm seeing the main value of this as part of the bigger picture of how involved together the Trump campaign and the Russians were.

-

Of course not mentioning his meeting on his original application for a security clearance is a felony.

I thought Donald Jr was the one designated to stay out of government to look after the businesses? Am I confusing him with Eric?


Patriotism is the excuse that countries give to themselves for their failures. Stephen Marche

This message is a reply to:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 26306
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 898 of 960 (814742)
07-12-2017 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 896 by JonF
07-12-2017 11:12 AM


Re: Nobody said there is *no* evidence of collusion
Hillary did a lot of colluding with Russia but that's being ignored. The dirt one might get on her by talking to a Russian representative is evidence for that. Trump wouldn't have been colluding, he would have been looking for evidence that Hillary colluded. Which she did, which is being ignored. The Russian lawyer has been photographed at anti-Trump rallies and Soros events. The whole thing is a set-up to take the heat off Hillary and smear Trump with her crimes.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 13125
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 899 of 960 (814750)
07-12-2017 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 898 by Faith
07-12-2017 1:07 PM


Re: Nobody said there is *no* evidence of collusion
quote:

Hillary did a lot of colluding with Russia but that's being ignored.

Anything that you wouldn't roundly approve of if she was a Republican ? You didn't have any problem with Sessions' meetings with the Russians (and the main problem was misleading Congress, not the meetings themselves)

quote:

The dirt one might get on her by talking to a Russian representative is evidence for that

How do you know that there was any real dirt to offer ? And if there was how do you know it wasn't obtained by hacking and nothing to do with Russia ?

quote:

Trump wouldn't have been colluding, he would have been looking for evidence that Hillary colluded

Trump Jr went in with the intent of getting dirt from the Russian government without any real concern as to what that dirt might be. Certainly looks as if he was ready to collude.

quote:

The Russian lawyer has been photographed at anti-Trump rallies and Soros events.

Even if that is true there is no evidence that she had anything to do with the alleged set-up.

quote:

The whole thing is a set-up to take the heat off Hillary and smear Trump with her crimes.

Not much of a set-up. All Trump Jr or Kushner or Manafort had to do was to refuse the meeting. They weren't given any "dirt" - even fake "dirt" - which would have made the situation much worse. And you know reporting what they did is not a smear.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 898 by Faith, posted 07-12-2017 1:07 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 26306
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 900 of 960 (814751)
07-12-2017 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 899 by PaulK
07-12-2017 1:37 PM


Re: Nobody said there is *no* evidence of collusion
I can't even keep track of Hillary's crimes, including selling American info to Russia for money. Sessions' contact had nothing to do with campaign issues, they were standard contacts with diplomats that all US politicians have. There was nothing he was required to report, or would even have occurred to him to report.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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