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Author Topic:   Gay Marriage as an attack on Christianity
Faith
Member
Posts: 25827
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1 of 1017 (802088)
03-12-2017 7:23 AM


To continue from the Fake News thread where it was off topic,

Except for the fact that the punishment is mild compared to torture, beheading, being eaten by lions and buried alive, there is nothing in principle different between a Christian's being required to worship Caesar or Nebuchadnezzar and being required to do something that to the Christian conscience implies acceptance of anything else that God has absolutely forbidden, such as gay marriage.

Rrhain in Message 699 is claiming there is nothing special about catering a wedding so Christians can't claim there is, we have to believe him instead of the Bible and our conscience.

There's probably nothing that will get the point across to him, but just to repeat it: A wedding cake is usually a custom affair made especially for the occasion, according to specifications given by the customer, it's not a generic cake you can buy from the display case. It's also not like a birthday cake since Christians have no reason to object to gays or anybody else celebrating a birthday. They can have all the custom features on their birthday cake they want.

What they can't have from a Christian baker is a special order for a gay wedding because that puts the baker in the position of treating the wedding as legitimate, and nothing rrhain has to say about it makes one iota of difference to that fact. God has decreed what marriage is, and has told us that homosexual acts are sin; that makes gay marriage a slap in God's face, which we will not participate in. Where there is a law requiring us to accept gay marriage we simply cannot obey it and must take the punishment.

The same is true for a florist asked to design arrangements for a gay wedding. They can buy all the flowers they want and do the arrangements themselves, but a Christian florist cannot do it for them because that puts him or her in the position of treating the wedding as legitimate. The florist could of course design arrangements for them for any other kind of event. Same for a Christian photographer. Again, the photographer could take pictures for any other kind of party, just not a gay wedding.

This has been discussed over and over at EvC but I guess no subject here ever reaches an actual finale.

In Message 700 RR continues:

rr writes:

Faith writes:

You are entitled to your view of it, but so are the Christians who won't perform certain actions because they understand them as legitimizing something the Bible condemns.

Nope.
The law doesn't care what your "point of view" is.
Do you think you have a religious exemption to the law?

Why is this so hard to understand? Are you unaware that we were a Christian society up until very recently, which would never have dreamed of legalizing something as antichristian as "gay marriage?"

Now that the west is regressing to paganism we have increasingly pagan laws which eagerly shove Christianity off the map. SO we now do NOT have religious freedom, we are subject to paganism, and in such a legal circumstance we have no choice but to obey God rather than man and take the consequences.

Capiche?


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by frako, posted 03-12-2017 7:36 AM Faith has responded
 Message 3 by PaulK, posted 03-12-2017 7:42 AM Faith has responded
 Message 34 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-12-2017 9:47 AM Faith has responded
 Message 40 by Modulous, posted 03-12-2017 12:32 PM Faith has responded
 Message 105 by Rrhain, posted 03-13-2017 5:03 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 209 by Pressie, posted 03-16-2017 7:04 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 865 by Dredge, posted 04-03-2017 3:37 AM Faith has responded

  
frako
Member
Posts: 2702
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 2 of 1017 (802089)
03-12-2017 7:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
03-12-2017 7:23 AM


God also expressly prohibits wearing two different fabric's together but i dont see you getting your panties in a twist about it.

King James Bible
Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee.

International Standard Version
"Observe my statutes. "You are not to let your cattle breed with a different species. "You are not to sow your fields with two different kinds of seeds. "You are not to wear clothing made from two different kinds of material.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Faith, posted 03-12-2017 7:23 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Faith, posted 03-12-2017 7:50 AM frako has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12969
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 3 of 1017 (802090)
03-12-2017 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
03-12-2017 7:23 AM


False equivalence
quote:

Except for the fact that the punishment is mild compared to torture, beheading, being eaten by lions and buried alive, there is nothing in principle different between a Christian's being required to worship Caesar or Nebuchadnezzar and being required to do something that to the Christian conscience implies acceptance of anything else that God has absolutely forbidden, such as gay marriage.

There is a huge difference between active participation and acceptance. The required involvement only applies (where it applies at all) to businesses supplying services. There is a huge difference between supplying services and actively engaging in forbidden sexual activity. I might suggest that eating meat from pagan sacrifices is a similar form of acceptance, yet that is explicitly permitted to Christians,

Further, the real complaint is against anti-discrimination laws, not gay marriage as such, so the title is obviously misleading. And I have to assume intentionally so since this is hardly the first time that error has been made - and corrected.

So, since gay marriage does not require Christians to do anything "absolutely forbidden by God" the whole complaint is clearly false.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Faith, posted 03-12-2017 7:23 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Faith, posted 03-12-2017 7:48 AM PaulK has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 25827
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 4 of 1017 (802091)
03-12-2017 7:48 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by PaulK
03-12-2017 7:42 AM


Re: False equivalence
How amazing that nonChristians believe they can tell us what it means to be obedient to God or not. What chutzpah. At least five different Christian business owners independently understood that it was forbidden by God to use their business to cater a gay wedding, but any old unbeliever can tell us they're wrong.

Just proof that paganism rules I guess. But who cares, we'll follow our conscience whether you get it or not and take the punishment. Sheesh.

No it is not about general "discrimination," it's specifically about gay marriage. And again, who are you to tell us what it's about?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by PaulK, posted 03-12-2017 7:42 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by PaulK, posted 03-12-2017 8:52 AM Faith has responded
 Message 85 by dwise1, posted 03-13-2017 2:44 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 202 by MiguelG, posted 03-15-2017 9:12 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 25827
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 5 of 1017 (802092)
03-12-2017 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by frako
03-12-2017 7:36 AM


Oh yeah, we have to hear about that old canard again too.

That's one of the laws specifically given to Israel and nobody else to teach them spiritual truths and to set them apart from the heathen nations. They apply to nobody but ancient Israel. Other laws were fulfilled by Christ.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by frako, posted 03-12-2017 7:36 AM frako has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by frako, posted 03-12-2017 7:53 AM Faith has responded

  
frako
Member
Posts: 2702
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


(1)
Message 6 of 1017 (802093)
03-12-2017 7:53 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Faith
03-12-2017 7:50 AM


um but the gay abomination thing comes from the same batch of silly laws.

Leviticus 20:13 "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

Don't let cattle graze with other kinds of Cattle (Leviticus 19:19)

Don't have a variety of crops on the same field. (Leviticus 19:19)

Don't wear clothes made of more than one fabric (Leviticus 19:19)

Don't cut your hair nor shave. (Leviticus 19:27)

Any person who curseth his mother or father, must be killed. (Leviticus 20:9) Have you ever done that?

If a man cheats on his wife, or vise versa, both the man and the woman must die. (Leviticus 20:10). I wonder if Dr. Laura would like that one to be enforced?

If a man sleeps with his father's wife... both him and his father's wife is to be put to death. (Leviticus 20:11)

If a man sleeps with his wife and her mother they are all to be burnt to death. (Leviticus 20:14)

If a man or woman has sex with an animal, both human and animal must be killed. (Leviticus 20:15-16). I guess you should kill the animal since they were willing participants. Are they crazy?

If a man has sex with a woman on her period, they are both to be "cut off from their people" (Leviticus 20:18)

Psychics, wizards, and so on are to be stoned to death. (Leviticus 20:27)

If a priest's daughter is a whore, she is to be burnt at the stake. (Leviticus 21:9)

People who have flat noses, or is blind or lame, cannot go to an altar of God (Leviticus 21:17-18)

Anyone who curses or blasphemes God, should be stoned to death by the community. (Leviticus 24:14-16)

Don't let cattle graze with other kinds of Cattle (Leviticus 19:19)

So only the gay law from leviticus counts everything else does not that sounds silly to me

Edited by frako, : No reason given.

Edited by frako, : No reason given.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Faith, posted 03-12-2017 7:50 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Faith, posted 03-12-2017 7:57 AM frako has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 25827
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 7 of 1017 (802094)
03-12-2017 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by frako
03-12-2017 7:53 AM


No it doesn't. It's one of the moral laws, which applies to everyone everywhere in all time, because it's of the Moral Law that runs the universe. It's usually included in preaching about the Ten Commandments under the prohibition of adultery. It is not one of the "ceremonial" laws which apply to Israel only.

Who cares what "sounds silly" to you?

The spiritual meaning of some of the ceremonial laws applies to everybody too but it would be ridiculous to try to discuss that with you.

ABE: Consider it symbolic of adultery.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by frako, posted 03-12-2017 7:53 AM frako has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by frako, posted 03-12-2017 8:05 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
frako
Member
Posts: 2702
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


(1)
Message 8 of 1017 (802095)
03-12-2017 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Faith
03-12-2017 7:57 AM


It's usually included in preaching about Ten Commandments

Well its written in the same place as those silly laws are. Are you sure you are just not a biggot as is your preacher. And this one is also ceremonial, how can you tell what is a moral law and what is ceremonial?


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Faith, posted 03-12-2017 7:57 AM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by NoNukes, posted 03-12-2017 8:09 PM frako has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29183
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 9 of 1017 (802096)
03-12-2017 8:09 AM


Gay marriage is not an attack on Christianity or on anything else.
Same sex marriage is NOT an attack on Christianity just as gay pastors or priests or women pastors and priests are not an attack on Christianity.

Marriage is a secular contract. Sorry but that is the fact. It has nothing to do with Christianity or religion.

Your Chapter of Club Christian is free to believe otherwise and can even refuse to recognize gay marriage within your Chapter of Club Christian but that has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that your beliefs are not relevant to the reality of other people marriages.

Edited by jar, : left a not not there


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Faith, posted 03-12-2017 8:12 AM jar has responded

Faith
Member
Posts: 25827
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 10 of 1017 (802097)
03-12-2017 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by jar
03-12-2017 8:09 AM


Re: Gay marriage is not an attack on Christianity or on anything else.
Great. So we'll obey God anyway and you can punish us for it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by jar, posted 03-12-2017 8:09 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by jar, posted 03-12-2017 8:20 AM Faith has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29183
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 11 of 1017 (802098)
03-12-2017 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Faith
03-12-2017 8:12 AM


Re: Gay marriage is not an attack on Christianity or on anything else.
Faith writes:

Great. So we'll obey God anyway and you can punish us for it.

No Faith, you will not get punished for obeying God. You can get punished for breaking the laws.

But you are not obeying God anyway but rather perverting Jesus message. If you believe Gay Marriage is a sin then do not marry someone of the same sex.

If your Chapter of Club Christian wants to tell same sex couples they cannot belong to your Chapter of Club Christian then fine. No one has said that you must do so.

But marriage is a secular contract. Even the marriages performed in your Chapter of Club Christian are only valid because the secular authority says so.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Faith, posted 03-12-2017 8:12 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Faith, posted 03-12-2017 8:36 AM jar has responded

Faith
Member
Posts: 25827
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 12 of 1017 (802099)
03-12-2017 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by jar
03-12-2017 8:20 AM


Re: Gay marriage is not an attack on Christianity or on anything else.
Ah well, so more sophistry, more word magic, more illogic in the service of not only making sure we get punished for denying gay marriage but can't even have our own beliefs about it.

As I pointed out on the other thread, it is for "breaking the law" that Christians got thrown to the lions in Rome, and in ancient Babylon, and beaten to a pulp by the KGB (such as for meeting with other Christians to worship and pray), and great men were put to the stake by Rome for translating the Bible. Yet you go on with this craziness about how it's not about obeying God?

I wonder when the English language is just going to dissolve into total word salad under the Left?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by jar, posted 03-12-2017 8:20 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by jar, posted 03-12-2017 8:47 AM Faith has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29183
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 13 of 1017 (802100)
03-12-2017 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Faith
03-12-2017 8:36 AM


Re: Gay marriage is not an attack on Christianity or on anything else.
Faith writes:

Ah well, so more sophistry, more word magic, more illogic in the service of not only making sure we get punished for denying gay marriage but can't even have our own beliefs about it.

Of course you can have your own beliefs but your beliefs have nothing to do with reality.

You are even free to believe that same sex marriages are an attack on your Chapter of Club Christian.

What you are not free to do is to try to impose your beliefs on people who are not members of your Chapter of Club Christian.

Faith writes:

As I pointed out on the other threads, it is for "breaking the law" that Christians got thrown to the lions in Rome, and in ancient Babylon, and beaten to a pulp by the KGB (such as for meeting with other Christians to worship and pray), and great men were put to the stake by Rome for translating the Bible. Yet you go on with this craziness about how it's not about obeying God?

I did more than that Faith. I went on to show that the Bible itself shows it is not about obeying God but rather another sign of the wilful ignorance of much of Christianity.

The Bible itself says that even common decency takes precedence over following God's laws. I will repeat here for you yet again.

2Kings:5 writes:

17 “If you will not,” said Naaman, “please let me, your servant, be given as much earth as a pair of mules can carry, for your servant will never again make burnt offerings and sacrifices to any other god but the Lord. 18 But may the Lord forgive your servant for this one thing: When my master enters the temple of Rimmon to bow down and he is leaning on my arm and I have to bow there also—when I bow down in the temple of Rimmon, may the Lord forgive your servant for this.”

19 “Go in peace,” Elisha said.

Helping others, even in something as major as their worship of a different God is not just forgiven but seen as actually obeying God.

Those who refuse to bake a cake or rent a room or any other act of discrimination because they believe it is a sin are simply ignorant of what we are charged by the Bible to do.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Faith, posted 03-12-2017 8:36 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Faith, posted 03-12-2017 8:51 AM jar has responded

Faith
Member
Posts: 25827
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 14 of 1017 (802101)
03-12-2017 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by jar
03-12-2017 8:47 AM


Re: Gay marriage is not an attack on Christianity or on anything else.
I see, so I'm NOT allowed to have my beliefs, I have to have yours.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by jar, posted 03-12-2017 8:47 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 03-12-2017 8:54 AM Faith has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12969
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 15 of 1017 (802102)
03-12-2017 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Faith
03-12-2017 7:48 AM


Re: False equivalence
quote:

How amazing that nonChristians believe they can tell us what it means to be obedient to God or not. What chutzpah.

Pure ad-hominem. And absolutely no valid argument.

quote:

At least five different Christian business owners independently understood that it was forbidden by God to use their business to cater a gay wedding, but any old unbeliever can tell us they're wrong.

Five is not exactly many, and owning a business hardly makes you well-versed in the Bible. And given the hostility towards gay marriage from the right it is hardly unlikely that their objections come more from listening to politicians than reading the Bible.

quote:

No it is not about general "discrimination," it's specifically about gay marriage. And again, who are you to tell us what it's about?

I am an honest person who hates lies. Obviously it is about the non-discrimination laws since those are the laws that are being broken. Where gay marriage is allowed but the laws do not protect gays against discrimination there are none of these prosecutions that you are complaining about.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Faith, posted 03-12-2017 7:48 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Faith, posted 03-12-2017 8:55 AM PaulK has responded

  
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