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Author Topic:   Gay Marriage as an attack on Christianity
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 466 of 1017 (802796)
03-20-2017 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 462 by Percy
03-20-2017 8:48 AM


Re: Bible definition of gay marriage
Left out this part:

It doesn't need to. References in the rest of the Bible make it clear if it escapes you as written.

Well, that's great - if you can provide those references and they say what you claim they say then that would settle this discussion.

I'm thinking of the many references scattered here and there about marriage, instructions to husbands, wives and children for instance, that all together in the context of the whole Bible should confirm the defrinition as given. I don't know if I could come up with any specific passages that would make the point. If I think of any I will. Otherwise I recommend you spend the rest of your life reading the Bible, commentaries and theology books. It's good for the soul and should answer most of your questions.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 462 by Percy, posted 03-20-2017 8:48 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 468 by Percy, posted 03-20-2017 11:18 AM Faith has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 29426
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 467 of 1017 (802797)
03-20-2017 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 465 by Faith
03-20-2017 9:55 AM


LBGT affirming Christian denominations
LGBT-affirming Christian denominations shows that same-sex marriage is NOT an attack on Christianity and so far none of the Christian groups whining about the issue have presented any evidence to show there they would suffer any harm from affirming same-sex marriages or baking wedding cakes for a same-sex marriage or renting rooms to same-sex couples or in any other claimed affirmation.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 465 by Faith, posted 03-20-2017 9:55 AM Faith has not yet responded

Percy
Member
Posts: 16020
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 468 of 1017 (802801)
03-20-2017 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 466 by Faith
03-20-2017 10:01 AM


Re: Bible definition of gay marriage
Faith writes:

I would expect people to accept what a person says about why they believe what they believe...
...
I'm thinking of the many references scattered here and there about marriage, instructions to husbands, wives and children for instance, that all together in the context of the whole Bible should confirm the defrinition as given. I don't know if I could come up with any specific passages that would make the point. If I think of any I will. Otherwise I recommend you spend the rest of your life reading the Bible, commentaries and theology books.

But I do accept why you believe what you believe. You said the Bible says it, you believe it, that settles it. I accept that you think that way. But when asked to support where the Bible says it you can't do it, in this case about where the Bible defines marriage. All you can say is that you believe it, and a lot of other people believe it, too. Well, I don't believe it, and a lot of other people don't believe it, too. So what. What matters is whether you can support what you claim.

It is certainly shared by the majority of conservative Christians today who would agree that God's definition of marriage as I quoted it requires us to refuse to do anything to appear to legitimize gay marriage.

As has been pointed out, gays are not trying to sanctify a marriage such as you think is described in the Bible. They're trying to have a civil marriage.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 466 by Faith, posted 03-20-2017 10:01 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 470 by Faith, posted 03-20-2017 11:30 AM Percy has responded

  
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 469 of 1017 (802802)
03-20-2017 11:19 AM


There was no Discrimination Against Gays, but the Law Does Trash Freedom of Religion
To my mind the thread changed direction when Tangle posted the article in the Guardian by the gay activist who had changed his mind about punishing a Christian bakery for discrimination against gays. The bakery in Belfast had refused to honor a particular request for a gay-marriage-affirming message on a cake, were sued and fined 500 pounds (about $620 in American dollars), and appealed the case. Just before the appeal date the gay activist reported on his change of mind.

I'd kept the topic of this thread to the simple effect of the legalization of gay marriage on Christians who cannot accept gay marriage as legitimate. I didn't want to include the question of the legitimacy of the law itself as a violation of freedom of conscience, or freedom of religion, to avoid complicating the discussion but also because I've accepted that political trends are such we're going to have to accept that our freedom of religion is now destroyed by political correctness and that is that. I just wanted to emphasize that this DOES punish conservative Bible-believing Christians.

It also demolishes freedom of religion, and I'm glad to see this fact raised in the UK, and by a gay activist yet. This Opinion Piece in the Guardian, I’ve changed my mind on the gay cake row. Here’s why makes a good case for that so I think it should be included on the thread. Tangle has been more or less defending it in recent posts.

Here's the conclusion by the author, Peter Tatchell:

...[T]he court erred by ruling that Lee was discriminated against because of his sexual orientation and political opinions.

His cake request was refused not because he was gay, but because of the message he asked for. There is no evidence that his sexuality was the reason Ashers declined his order. Despite this, Judge Isobel Brownlie said that refusing the pro-gay marriage slogan was unlawful indirect sexual orientation discrimination. On the question of political discrimination, the judge said Ashers had denied Lee service based on his request for a message supporting same-sex marriage. She noted: “If the plaintiff had ordered a cake with the words ‘support marriage’ or ‘support heterosexual marriage’ I have no doubt that such a cake would have been provided.” Brownlie thus concluded that by refusing to provide a cake with a pro-gay marriage wording Ashers had treated him less favourably, contrary to the law.

This finding of political discrimination against Lee sets a worrying precedent. Northern Ireland’s laws against discrimination on the grounds of political opinion were framed in the context of decades of conflict. They were designed to heal the sectarian divide by preventing the denial of jobs, housing and services to people because of their politics. There was never an intention that this law should compel people to promote political ideas with which they disagreed.

The judge concluded that service providers are required to facilitate any “lawful” message, even if they have a conscientious objection. This raises the question: should Muslim printers be obliged to publish cartoons of Mohammed? Or Jewish ones publish the words of a Holocaust denier? Or gay bakers accept orders for cakes with homophobic slurs? If the Ashers verdict stands it could, for example, encourage far-right extremists to demand that bakeries and other service providers facilitate the promotion of anti-migrant and anti-Muslim opinions. It would leave businesses unable to refuse to decorate cakes or print posters with bigoted messages.

In my view, it is an infringement of freedom to require businesses to aid the promotion of ideas to which they conscientiously object. Discrimination against people should be unlawful, but not against ideas.

Yahoo. NOT AGAINST IDEAS. Beliefs, political opinions. Such as objection to gay marriage.

None of the businesses we've been discussing refused services to gays in general, only services related to gay marriage. Same as the situation in the UK.

A sparkling note of sanity in the enveloping midst of PC murk. (I don't have any illusions that it will go much beyond this refreshingly sane moment, of course, but it's a huge relief to know there are still people who can rise above the PC muck that is engulfing the world.)

So, after pages of the usual PC murk on this thread so far, I invite the same for this revised version of the topic. Let's see freedom of religion trashed to a fare-thee-well on behalf of gay marriage. I'm sure you're all up to it.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


Faith
Inactive Member


Message 470 of 1017 (802803)
03-20-2017 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 468 by Percy
03-20-2017 11:18 AM


Re: Bible definition of gay marriage
But when asked to support where the Bible says it you can't do it, in this case about where the Bible defines marriage

That is untrue. I gave the references on the Bible's definition of marriage in Message 278. It doesn't matter that you aren't convinced, it's the reason conservative Christians object to gay marriage and will act on it when pushed to accept it.

As has been pointed out, gays are not trying to sanctify a marriage such as you think is described in the Bible. They're trying to have a civil marriage.

Marriage is marriage, it is defined by God for all peoples in all times no matter what any other authority thinks about it. Gays CALL it "marriage," they refer to their "wedding," I've even been told by a gay guy about his male "wife" -- that is how THEY think about it so don't pull a semantic trick here. They fought tooth and nail against all proposals for legal alternatives to marriage and what they got is marriage, not a "civil union" without the trappings of marriage. There is no distinction being made in any sense at all. The Biblical definition is what motivates conservative Christians and you cannot tell us we need to agree with some other definition instead.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 468 by Percy, posted 03-20-2017 11:18 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 472 by PaulK, posted 03-20-2017 11:57 AM Faith has responded
 Message 473 by ringo, posted 03-20-2017 12:16 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 476 by Percy, posted 03-20-2017 1:10 PM Faith has responded
 Message 483 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-20-2017 2:08 PM Faith has responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 13718
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 471 of 1017 (802804)
03-20-2017 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 411 by Faith
03-19-2017 5:29 PM


Re: Bible definition of gay marriage
Faith writes:

It's GAY MARRIAGE that's the problem because of the SCOTUS RULING that requires me to treat it as legitimate which the Bible says I cannot.


You're not answering the question. I asked why you're singling it out.

What's the difference between being "required" to bake a wedding cake and being "required" to serve shellfish if you work at Red Lobster? Or being "required" to sell cotton-polyester blends if you work at Sears? The Bible puts them on the same level as homosexuality.

And the Bible says NOTHING about homosexual marriage, only homosexuality itself, so you can stop pretending otherwise.

Faith writes:

Why is this so difficult?


This is so difficult for you because your position is so ludicrous.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 411 by Faith, posted 03-19-2017 5:29 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 493 by Modulous, posted 03-20-2017 3:47 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

PaulK
Member
Posts: 13226
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 472 of 1017 (802805)
03-20-2017 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 470 by Faith
03-20-2017 11:30 AM


Gay marriage is an attack on theocratic tyranny
quote:

Marriage is marriage, it is defined by God for all peoples in all times no matter what any other authority thinks about it. Gays CALL it "marriage," they refer to their "wedding," I've even been told by a gay guy about his male "wife" -- that is how THEY think about it so don't pull a semantic trick here. They fought tooth and nail against all proposals for legal alternatives to marriage and what they got is marriage, not a "civil union" without the trappings of marriage. There is no distinction being made in any sense at all. The Biblical definition is what motivates conservative Christians and you cannot tell us we need to agree with some other definition instead

In other words you claim that "Christians" own the concept of marriage and won't allow anybody else to have any different ideas.

Too bad, you live in a secular state and you don't get to dictate the law.

I guess that explains why you keep trying to blame the anti-discrimination cases on the SCOTUS decision, despite knowing that it isn't true. They are just a weapon in your fight against justice and freedom.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 470 by Faith, posted 03-20-2017 11:30 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 474 by Faith, posted 03-20-2017 12:18 PM PaulK has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13718
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 473 of 1017 (802806)
03-20-2017 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 470 by Faith
03-20-2017 11:30 AM


Re: Bible definition of gay marriage
Faith writes:

It doesn't matter that you aren't convinced, it's the reason conservative Christians object to gay marriage and will act on it when pushed to accept it.


But society can't make special provisions for your misunderstanding of the Bible. If you believed that the Bible authorises slavery, our society would still not allow you to own slaves. If you believed that the Bible authorises polygamy, our society would still not allow multiple wives. Your misunderstanding is not a get-out-of-jail-free card.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 470 by Faith, posted 03-20-2017 11:30 AM Faith has not yet responded

Faith
Inactive Member


Message 474 of 1017 (802807)
03-20-2017 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 472 by PaulK
03-20-2017 11:57 AM


Re: Gay marriage is an attack on theocratic tyranny
In other words you claim that "Christians" own the concept of marriage and won't allow anybody else to have any different ideas.

Well we do "own the concept," in that God "owns the concept"and the Bible is God's word, but no, I've made no such claim, you can certainly go on with your own definitions as of course you do and will, which is why we get pu8nished for OUR definition. Hey? It's YOUR concept that is judging ours, not the other way around. And it's you that are not allowing us our idea.

Too bad, you live in a secular state and you don't get to dictate the law

Alas, how true, which has been affirmed from the beginning of this thread, it's why we can't object to gay marriage any more, the pagans have won, the world is getting darker by the minute, very very true.

I guess that explains why you keep trying to blame the anti-discrimination cases on the SCOTUS decision, despite knowing that it isn't true. They are just a weapon in your fight against justice and freedom.

Believe it or not I could not care less what the immediate source of this PC murk is, I don't care where it came from, the only point of this whole thread is that there is a law that legitimizes gay marriage that Christians cannot accept, that has authority to dictate this legitimization against our beliefs. Pretty obvious I would think.

Yup, "justice and freedom" for selected leftist favorites, against the Christian traditions that were once the foundation of law in the West. Hey I've accepted the handwriting on the wall, you're beating a dead horse over and over and over. Paganism has won, we've lost, why not just jump up and down with joy? What's this need to keep on beating us?

TRUE freedom is gone, TRUE justice is gone, TRUE diversity is gone, we are now under totalitarian leftist rule, though nobody here is willing to acknowledge it.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 472 by PaulK, posted 03-20-2017 11:57 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 475 by PaulK, posted 03-20-2017 12:37 PM Faith has responded
 Message 479 by Percy, posted 03-20-2017 1:41 PM Faith has responded

PaulK
Member
Posts: 13226
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 475 of 1017 (802809)
03-20-2017 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 474 by Faith
03-20-2017 12:18 PM


Re: Gay marriage is an attack on theocratic tyranny
quote:

Well we do "own the concept," in that God "owns the concept"and the Bible is God's word, but no, I've made no such claim, you can certainly go on with your own definitions as of course you do and will, which is why we get pu8nished for OUR definition. Hey? It's YOUR concept that is judging ours, not the other way around. And it's you that are not allowing us our idea

Nobody is interfering in your marriages or your weddings. You HAVE your idea. You just want to enforce it against other people even where the law says you can't.

quote:

Alas, how true, which has been affirmed from the beginning of this thread, it's why we can't object to gay marriage any more, the pagans have won, the world is getting darker by the minute, very very true.

Of course you can object. You just can't do so by denying services to gays in States where gays are a protected class. The rest is just whining that the forces of good are winning.

quote:

Believe it or not I could not care less what the immediate source of this PC murk is, I don't care where it came from, the only point of this whole thread is that there is a law that legitimizes gay marriage that Christians cannot accept, that has authority to dictate this legitimization against our beliefs. Pretty obvious I would think.

But there is no such law. The laws that keep "Christian" businesses from denying services to gays are quite separate from the SCOTUS decision. You know that. It is perfectly obvious that your "point" is a lie.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 474 by Faith, posted 03-20-2017 12:18 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 477 by Faith, posted 03-20-2017 1:29 PM PaulK has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 16020
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 476 of 1017 (802810)
03-20-2017 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 470 by Faith
03-20-2017 11:30 AM


Re: Bible definition of gay marriage
Faith writes:

That is untrue. I gave the references on the Bible's definition of marriage in Message 278. It doesn't matter that you aren't convinced, it's the reason conservative Christians object to gay marriage and will act on it when pushed to accept it.

The passages you cited do not say marriage can only be between one man and one woman, and they don't say anything much about women at all. You're unable to produce the passages that might support you, yet you demand we just trust that they exist in the Bible somewhere.

Marriage is marriage, it is defined by God for all peoples in all times no matter what any other authority thinks about it.

You can't make declarations about all peoples of all cultures and religions. I think you have delusions of grandeur, plus you seem to have abandoned your claim that you haven't made up your mind yet about civil marriages.

The Biblical definition is what motivates conservative Christians and you cannot tell us we need to agree with some other definition instead.

No one's asking you to accept some other definition of marriage. We're asking you to support the definition you claim is supposedly in the Bible. If the Bible says it, then you should be able to point to it.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 470 by Faith, posted 03-20-2017 11:30 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 478 by Faith, posted 03-20-2017 1:34 PM Percy has responded

  
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 477 of 1017 (802812)
03-20-2017 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 475 by PaulK
03-20-2017 12:37 PM


Re: Gay marriage is an attack on theocratic tyranny
Nobody is interfering in your marriages or your weddings. You HAVE your idea. You just want to enforce it against other people even where the law says you can't.

What are you so worried about? The law says we can't so we can't and yet you go on bleating about it. (I suggest that you know that we represent the true God and you have to shut HIM up because he DOES have power over you. Yet here you've pretty much shut him up with laws and yet you go on yelling about it.) If you don't want to hear my point of view you don't have to read it you know. Proof thatour view of marriage is not enforced against anybody is that Christian businesses get punished for refusing service to a gay wedding. Yet you keep acting like we have some kind of power over you.

Just to say it again, refusing service for a gay wedding, is not discrimination against persons as I've pointed out again and again, but specifically refusing to legitimize a particular social institution. And it's in your power to encourage lots of such arrangements and surround us with them, against our definition of marriage. So what ARE you bleating about. Yes, I think you do know you're fighting against God Himself. Nobody wins that fight. You can have thousands of gay marriages, and all the Christians could disappear -- and maybe we will -- but you can't get rid of God.

Alas, how true, which has been affirmed from the beginning of this thread, it's why we can't object to gay marriage any more, the pagans have won, the world is getting darker by the minute, very very true.

Of course you can object. You just can't do so by denying services to gays in States where gays are a protected class. The rest is just whining that the forces of good are winning.

Can't object without being punished. Why do you pretend that wasn't the point? Anything to obscure the truth.

So you are right that we can't do it, because we get punished for it Except of course that you've got good and evil reversed, you are quite right and I've never said otherwise. And yet you keep on bleating about it.

Believe it or not I could not care less what the immediate source of this PC murk is, I don't care where it came from, the only point of this whole thread is that there is a law that legitimizes gay marriage that Christians cannot accept, that has authority to dictate this legitimization against our beliefs. Pretty obvious I would think.

But there is no such law. The laws that keep "Christian" businesses from denying services to gays are quite separate from the SCOTUS decision. You know that. It is perfectly obvious that your "point" is a lie.

Again, I could not care less what keeps us from objecting to gay marriage (but you certainly enjoy calling us liars. And all the rest of the PC baggage) the only point is that we CAN'T object without being punished. The usual stupid nitpick to distract from the point, which is that we CAN'T object without being punished. Who cares what the source is? SCOTUS is a high profile source of such a ruling, there is nothing wrong with referring to it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 475 by PaulK, posted 03-20-2017 12:37 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 482 by PaulK, posted 03-20-2017 1:53 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 485 by jar, posted 03-20-2017 2:22 PM Faith has not yet responded

Faith
Inactive Member


Message 478 of 1017 (802814)
03-20-2017 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 476 by Percy
03-20-2017 1:10 PM


Re: Bible definition of gay marriage
I don't "demand" anything. Forget it all, I could NOT care less what you think. The fact remains that conservative Christians understand the passages already quoted to require us to deny gay marriage.

I certainly CAN make declarations about all peoples and all cultures because there is one God over them all. YOU can believe what you want but this is what God's word says and I'm not going to pretend it doesn't.

The problem is not my inability to show the principle in the Bible, the problem as usual is the obtuseness of people who don't believe the Bible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 476 by Percy, posted 03-20-2017 1:10 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 480 by Percy, posted 03-20-2017 1:47 PM Faith has not yet responded

Percy
Member
Posts: 16020
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 479 of 1017 (802815)
03-20-2017 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 474 by Faith
03-20-2017 12:18 PM


Re: Gay marriage is an attack on theocratic tyranny
Faith writes:

Well we do "own the concept," in that God "owns the concept"and the Bible is God's word, but no, I've made no such claim...

You most certainly just have:

Faith in Message 470 writes:

Marriage is marriage, it is defined by God for all peoples in all times no matter what any other authority thinks about it.

You very clearly just declared that marriage is defined by your religious beliefs the same way across all peoples. It is not.

...which is why we get punished for OUR definition.

I think there has been a bit of agreement with you in this thread that people shouldn't be forced to write things that are against their beliefs or philosophy. For example, were I a baker I can imagine being asked to write things on cakes that I just couldn't bring myself to write. I agree that one shouldn't be required to write just anything that anybody requests. On the other hand, one can't refuse to sell a cake to anyone if you're a baker, just as you can't refuse to rent a room if you're a hotel, or seat a customer if you're a restaurant.

Alas, how true, which has been affirmed from the beginning of this thread, it's why we can't object to gay marriage any more, the pagans have won, the world is getting darker by the minute, very very true.

Now you're just being cantankerous. Freedom of religion, which also means freedom from religion, is a good thing. Separation of church and state works in both directions. It not only protects others from your religious beliefs, it also protects you from others' religious beliefs. Everyone is free to practice the religion of their choice, as long as they don't interfere with the freedom of others.

Believe it or not I could not care less what the immediate source of this PC murk is, I don't care where it came from, the only point of this whole thread is that there is a law that legitimizes gay marriage that Christians cannot accept...

The point has been made several times now that you're not being asked to legitimize Christian gay marriage. You're being asked to stop interfering with a couple's right to be united in marriage.

Yup, "justice and freedom" for selected leftist favorites, against the Christian traditions that were once the foundation of law in the West. Hey I've accepted the handwriting on the wall, you're beating a dead horse over and over and over. Paganism has won, we've lost, why not just jump up and down with joy? What's this need to keep on beating us?

TRUE freedom is gone, TRUE justice is gone, TRUE diversity is gone, we are now under totalitarian leftist rule, though nobody here is willing to acknowledge it.

You're hyperventilating again. No one's interfering with your religious practices.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 474 by Faith, posted 03-20-2017 12:18 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 486 by Faith, posted 03-20-2017 2:29 PM Percy has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 16020
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 480 of 1017 (802816)
03-20-2017 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 478 by Faith
03-20-2017 1:34 PM


Re: Bible definition of gay marriage
Faith writes:

I don't "demand" anything.
...
I certainly CAN make declarations about all peoples and all cultures because there is one God over them all.

Contradict yourself much?

YOU can believe what you want but this is what God's word says and I'm not going to pretend it doesn't.

No one's asking you to pretend that God's word doesn't say precisely what you think it does, but the key word is "think." It's what you *think* the Bible says. Other people think differently, and you have to acknowledge that.

The fact remains that conservative Christians understand the passages already quoted to require us to deny gay marriage.

Yet you can't show us where those passages are in the Bible.

The problem is not my inability to show the principle in the Bible, the problem as usual is the obtuseness of people who don't believe the Bible.

You shouldn't blame other people for your own inability to support what you claim.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 478 by Faith, posted 03-20-2017 1:34 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
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