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Author Topic:   Gay Marriage as an attack on Christianity
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1577
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.1


(7)
Message 946 of 1017 (803802)
04-05-2017 5:12 AM
Reply to: Message 945 by Faith
04-05-2017 2:28 AM


Re: weird accusations of pro-lifers etc
faith writes:

And quite frankly it also seems to me that common sense would tell a person that marriage is for a man and a woman not two of the same sex --...

Not for me. My common sense tells me that when any two consenting adults want to get married, I have no right to even contemplate interfering with their decision. No matter whether they are male or female or intersex. It's got absolutely nothing to do with me. Their decisions don't affect me. At all. That's what my common sense tells me.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 945 by Faith, posted 04-05-2017 2:28 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28694
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 947 of 1017 (803812)
04-05-2017 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 945 by Faith
04-05-2017 2:28 AM


Re: weird accusations of pro-lifers etc
Faith writes:

So if I'm unable to adopt a child due to my age and my physical problems I'm not allowed to object to the murder of the unborn?

We are all opposed to murder Faith. But abortion is not murder.

Faith writes:

And quite frankly it also seems to me that common sense would tell a person that marriage is for a man and a woman not two of the same sex -- why is this only an issue for "religious" people?

Again Faith, your common sense may well be common but that does not make it right. Same-sex marriage is not a problem for all religious people, only a few. Divorced people getting married is a problem for some folk. Inter-racial marriage is a problem for some folk.

There is no Constitutional right to not be bothered.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 945 by Faith, posted 04-05-2017 2:28 AM Faith has not yet responded

NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9456
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 948 of 1017 (803831)
04-05-2017 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 945 by Faith
04-05-2017 2:28 AM


Re: weird accusations of pro-lifers etc
So if I'm unable to adopt a child due to my age and my physical problems I'm not allowed to object to the murder of the unborn?

If the original question were valid, then I would ask whether you had adopted any children back when you were younger.

But imo the question is really not fair for at least the reason that I already gave jar. Almost no aborted fetuses were viable.

And quite frankly it also seems to me that common sense would tell a person that marriage is for a man and a woman not two of the same sex

One of my wife's buddies is an 85 year-old woman who married a man of similar age several years ago. A few months before her marriage, the elderly lady was showing off this enormous diamond boulder on her engagement ring. I suppose some meddling fool should have told the lady that she was incapable of having babies. Common sense should tell you that marriage was not for her.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 945 by Faith, posted 04-05-2017 2:28 AM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 949 by jar, posted 04-05-2017 9:39 AM NoNukes has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28694
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


(2)
Message 949 of 1017 (803836)
04-05-2017 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 948 by NoNukes
04-05-2017 8:48 AM


Re: weird accusations of pro-lifers etc
NN writes:

Almost no aborted fetuses were viable.

Are you saying that they really aren't sweet little unborn babies and really would not grow up to be sweet little born babies?

This is the basic dishonesty or the ProLife movement.

Those folk who do have abortions are almost always as Pro Life as any of the "ProLife" cult. They agonize over the decision and suffer over the choices. It is not an issue of being in favor of life or opposed to life but rather an issue of trying to save lives.

Before abortion was decriminalized abortions still took place. But those abortions were often done by people with little or no medical training in unsanitary conditions and without the proper implements and with none of the emergency facilities needed should anything go wrong. There was no medical followup after the abortion and certainly no counseling at all.

At that time abortions really were often done in slaughterhouses and lots of the women suffered and died or ended up unable to every have a child.

Re-criminalizing abortion will not stop or even cut down abortions but most certainly will increase suffering and deaths.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 948 by NoNukes, posted 04-05-2017 8:48 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 951 by Faith, posted 04-05-2017 12:03 PM jar has responded
 Message 958 by NoNukes, posted 04-05-2017 2:32 PM jar has not yet responded

Faith
Member
Posts: 24487
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 950 of 1017 (803868)
04-05-2017 11:31 AM


A little compendium of leftist revisionist thought
Of course aborted fetuses are not viable, they've been expelled from their safe haven before they could grow to the stage of viability, or murdered.

Seems "common sense" is one of those terms that has bit the dust lately. "Leftist dogma" might be the latest version.

And I guess if you repeat it often enough murder stops being murder and becomes ..a procedure?

And it seems to me man and woman is a pretty sufficient definition of those qualified for marriage; I didn't add any other qualifications.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 959 by NoNukes, posted 04-05-2017 2:35 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 960 by ringo, posted 04-05-2017 3:18 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 24487
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


(1)
Message 951 of 1017 (803875)
04-05-2017 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 949 by jar
04-05-2017 9:39 AM


Re: weird accusations of pro-lifers etc
Yes there were unfortunate conditions for abortions before they were decriminalized but the number attempted under those conditions must have been far far short of the fifty million or so that have been racked up under Roe v Wade.

I had an illegal abortion myself -- in a warehouse in a city I had to fly to. The doctor was a doctor, an Asian, and I had a dream afterward about my child being Asian as she was taken off in a black hearse waving to me out the back window.

It is a really strange delusion some people get into over this "difficult choice to make" idea as if murdering your child could ever be an option, difficult or not, if you really understood that it IS murder. But of course you insist on using different terms to obscure that fact. I'd convinced myself it was just "a piece of tissue," then I had that dream. Weird.

There are situations, often run by churches, where pregnant girls/women can go to be private and cared for during the pregnancy. They get all kinds of help with adoption versus parenting choices, completing their education, getting a job or whatever is needed. Seems to me that instead of teaching women that it's not a child, which their own conscience will haunt them about in many cases, is why there are so many abortions. Try telling the truth for a change and offering help and the slaughtering may be appreciably reduced. The propaganda doesn't always have to be a lie that deceives women into killing their babies.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 949 by jar, posted 04-05-2017 9:39 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 952 by jar, posted 04-05-2017 12:10 PM Faith has responded
 Message 956 by herebedragons, posted 04-05-2017 1:15 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28694
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 952 of 1017 (803877)
04-05-2017 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 951 by Faith
04-05-2017 12:03 PM


Re: weird accusations of pro-lifers etc
Faith writes:

It is a really strange delusion some people get into over this "difficult choice to make" idea as if murdering your child could ever be an option, difficult or not, if you really understood that it IS murder.

Yet once again, reality says you are wrong. In the US today abortion is not murder no matter how many times to claim it is.

Faith writes:

Yes there were unfortunate conditions for abortions before they were decriminalized but the number attempted under those conditions must have been far far short of the fifty million or so that have been racked up under Roe v Wade.

Yet once again, that is simply an unsupported assertion combined with propaganda from the Right To Life cult.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 951 by Faith, posted 04-05-2017 12:03 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 953 by Faith, posted 04-05-2017 12:25 PM jar has responded

Faith
Member
Posts: 24487
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 953 of 1017 (803881)
04-05-2017 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 952 by jar
04-05-2017 12:10 PM


Re: weird accusations of pro-lifers etc
"Intentional ...killing...of....human... being" = murder. Second degree perhaps? But killing a human being, at any stage of life, any, is killing a human being, and calling it something else is just a lie.

And surely it must be true that if pregnant women were truthfully informed that it IS a human being the abortion rate would go way down.

At this time in history after decades of legal abortion we should have learned enough to be able to provide social services that make abortion unnecessary.

Back in the early days of Christianity people would have babies and put them out to die of exposure. Christians would go around rescuing them. They'd often take them home to raise them, but it got to be too many. That's how orphanages began. Why is it that Christians revere human life so much and others don't?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 952 by jar, posted 04-05-2017 12:10 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 955 by jar, posted 04-05-2017 12:32 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1785
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 954 of 1017 (803882)
04-05-2017 12:28 PM


Gay Marriage or Abortion?
It appears that the last few posts have been exclusively about abortion rather than gay marriage.

To be fair, I have not been moderating this thread consistently, but itwould make more sense to simply start a new thread if you wish to either defend this other attack on Christianity or defend abortion as a viable alternative.


  • Please stay on topic for a thread. Open a new thread for new topics.
  • Points should be supported with evidence and reasoned argumentation.
  • The sincerely held beliefs of other members deserve your respect. Please keep discussion civil. Argue the position, not the person.

  • Replies to this message:
     Message 957 by herebedragons, posted 04-05-2017 1:16 PM AdminPhat has acknowledged this reply

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 28694
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.6


    (2)
    Message 955 of 1017 (803883)
    04-05-2017 12:32 PM
    Reply to: Message 953 by Faith
    04-05-2017 12:25 PM


    Re: weird accusations of pro-lifers etc
    Faith writes:

    "Intentional ...killing...of....human... being" = murder. Second degree perhaps? But killing a human being, at any stage of life, any, is killing a human being, and calling it something else is just a lie.

    Yet the fact remains, in the US abortion is not murder.

    Faith writes:

    And surely it must be true that if pregnant women were truthfully informed that it IS a human being the abortion rate would go way down.

    Yet the fact remains that a fetus is not a human being.

    Faith writes:

    At this time in history after decades of legal abortion we should have learned enough to be able to provide social services that make abortion unnecessary.

    Yet the fact remains that particularly in the US Conservative Christians have opposed all efforts to create such social services like Planned Parenthood and early sex education in the schools and making contraceptives readily and freely available.

    Edited by jar, : strike through added to comply with admin request.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 953 by Faith, posted 04-05-2017 12:25 PM Faith has not yet responded

    herebedragons
    Member
    Posts: 1298
    From: Michigan
    Joined: 11-22-2009
    Member Rating: 5.0


    (1)
    Message 956 of 1017 (803887)
    04-05-2017 1:15 PM
    Reply to: Message 951 by Faith
    04-05-2017 12:03 PM


    Re: weird accusations of pro-lifers etc
    I took a bio-ethics course in my undergraduate training that really helped me understand this issue in a whole new way. The course was done in a debate format where the Professor offered some debate topics and the students chose what they wanted to do. Somehow I got the short end of the stick and had to defend abortion (keep in mind this is a Christian liberal arts university). At first I was like "how can I possibly defend this in a way that I would have any chance of winning the debate?" But I decided to make the most of it.

    One argument I used was the different value we put on life at different stages. To illustrate this I said imagine a fertility clinic was on fire and inside there were 100 frozen embryos and 1 5 year old child and you only had time to save one or the other. I don't think any of us would hesitate to save the 5 year old child. There definitely is a different value we place on those two life stages.

    But the main thrust of my argument was based on a video I came across where this guy was interviewing people who were pro-life protesters. He asked them two main questions: "Is abortion murder?" and "should it be illegal?" To which they all answered "Yes, definitely."

    Then he asked "If it were made illegal, what do you think they should do to women who have an abortion?" And the answers were like "Pray for them.", etc. but the answer that really got me was "I never thought about that before." And it hit me, we are concerned about these unborn children, who are probably better off not coming into this world, but we give no thought to the mothers who have made this choice.

    They are told to not think of this as a human life, just don't feel guilty. Yet it can haunt them for the rest of their life, as with your experience. I believe that in some ways more harm is done to the mother than to the unborn child.

    So now my position on abortion, while I still consider it to be taking a human life, focuses not so much on what happens to the unborn child, but to the mother. I don't think making abortion illegal is the answer, although I'm not really sure what the answer is. But I feel the church should be more concerned with the lives of the women who are faced with these decisions than they are with the unborn child.

    There are situations, often run by churches, where pregnant girls/women can go to be private and cared for during the pregnancy. They get all kinds of help with adoption versus parenting choices, completing their education, getting a job or whatever is needed. Seems to me that instead of teaching women that it's not a child, which their own conscience will haunt them about in many cases, is why there are so many abortions. Try telling the truth for a change and offering help and the slaughtering may be appreciably reduced. The propaganda doesn't always have to be a lie that deceives women into killing their babies.

    I agree. I think this type of solution serves people far better than protesting outside an abortion clinic or "right to life" chains.

    However, the church too often condemns people who are faced with these choices. We had one of our teens become pregnant a couple years ago and we were going to have a baby shower for her. One of the ladies in the church (a good lady, mind you) was like "why are we celebrating the pregnancy of an unwed mother?" That attitude is devastating to our cause of ending abortion, right? We don't need to celebrate her status as an unwed mother, but we do need to show her we love her and support her through a very hard time. She knows she screwed up and doesn't need our heaping of shame and guilt. It is that shame and guilt and feeling of despair that could push her to abort; that would be the "easy" way to escape.

    By the way, I won the debate pretty much unanimously...

    HBD


    Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

    "Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

    Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 951 by Faith, posted 04-05-2017 12:03 PM Faith has not yet responded

    herebedragons
    Member
    Posts: 1298
    From: Michigan
    Joined: 11-22-2009
    Member Rating: 5.0


    Message 957 of 1017 (803888)
    04-05-2017 1:16 PM
    Reply to: Message 954 by AdminPhat
    04-05-2017 12:28 PM


    Re: Gay Marriage or Abortion?
    OOPs sorry Phat. Posted before I saw the warning.

    Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

    "Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

    Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 954 by AdminPhat, posted 04-05-2017 12:28 PM AdminPhat has acknowledged this reply

    NoNukes
    Member
    Posts: 9456
    From: Central NC USA
    Joined: 08-13-2010
    Member Rating: 2.8


    Message 958 of 1017 (803897)
    04-05-2017 2:32 PM
    Reply to: Message 949 by jar
    04-05-2017 9:39 AM


    Re: weird accusations of pro-lifers etc
    Removed to comply with Phat's request.

    Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


    Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

    History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

    Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

    Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 949 by jar, posted 04-05-2017 9:39 AM jar has not yet responded

      
    NoNukes
    Member
    Posts: 9456
    From: Central NC USA
    Joined: 08-13-2010
    Member Rating: 2.8


    Message 959 of 1017 (803898)
    04-05-2017 2:35 PM
    Reply to: Message 950 by Faith
    04-05-2017 11:31 AM


    Re: A little compendium of leftist revisionist thought
    And it seems to me man and woman is a pretty sufficient definition of those qualified for marriage; I didn't add any other qualifications.

    In short, you are speaking of some version of common sense that does not require either logic, justification, or even much sense.

    Just no.


    Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

    History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

    Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

    Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 950 by Faith, posted 04-05-2017 11:31 AM Faith has not yet responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 12925
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.8


    Message 960 of 1017 (803905)
    04-05-2017 3:18 PM
    Reply to: Message 950 by Faith
    04-05-2017 11:31 AM


    Re: A little compendium of leftist revisionist thought
    Faith writes:

    Seems "common sense" is one of those terms that has bit the dust lately.


    As one of my teachers used to say, "Dirt is common - but not very valuable."

    Edited by ringo, : Removed off-topic comment.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 950 by Faith, posted 04-05-2017 11:31 AM Faith has not yet responded

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