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Author Topic:   Gay Marriage as an attack on Christianity
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16035
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 1051 of 1307 (834547)
06-08-2018 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 1044 by Faith
06-07-2018 11:46 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
So far so good as far as that SCOTUS decision goes but it's awfully limited and doesn't challenge the real issue which is the conflict created with biblical faith by the legalizing of gay marriage.

I don't see how the legalization affects it. Before that happened, it was still perfectly possible for a gay couple to go to one of the churches that marries gay people, have a wedding, and subsequently eat cake. Such a marriage wasn't recognized by the government, but presumably it would still have been equally offensive to assholes.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1044 by Faith, posted 06-07-2018 11:46 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1053 by NoNukes, posted 06-08-2018 11:57 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15125
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 1052 of 1307 (834548)
06-08-2018 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1046 by Faith
06-08-2018 12:12 AM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
Faith writes:

... refuse to do something that would dishonor God....


You just need to change your ideas about what dishonours God.

You're stuck in the old Testament with the other Pharisees. Jesus came to clarify what dishonours God - He said it was failing to love thy neighbour.


An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1046 by Faith, posted 06-08-2018 12:12 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 1053 of 1307 (834550)
06-08-2018 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1051 by Dr Adequate
06-08-2018 10:17 AM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
o far so good as far as that SCOTUS decision goes but it's awfully limited and doesn't challenge the real issue which is the conflict created with biblical faith by the legalizing of gay marriage.

I don't see how the legalization affects it.

Beyond that, the original concern, as expressed here, is not one q question that the Supreme Court could have addressed. If in fact, granting a right to one group conflicts with the wants and desires of others, that concern of necessity must be secondary at best. In fact, every grant of civil rights under the constitution offends somebody. Just allowing any Chinese or Muslims into the country already offends some folks.

When it comes to allowing one group of folks to have the secular benefits of marriage, when their marriages is absolutely none of the business of the rest of us, my religious objects simply cannot be an important consideration. Marriages are about your relationship as a couple to the state, and the state, under our Constitution, cannot make religious denials of rights any more than they can make ethnic or racial denials.

I'll admit here that I am an old fogey, and I do still get, weirded out when I see gay folks kiss on television. On the other hand, I used to turn my head when cowboys kissed women instead of their horses. My own feelings of ickiness, even when backed by religious teachings, simply cannot be a real reason to disallow other folks from doing what they want.

The Bible lists a whole bunch of things that are abominations and worse. However gay marriage alone is singled out as the one thing that ought to be a reason for society to BOHICA to bigots. Not buying it, and neither should you.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1051 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-08-2018 10:17 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1054 by Faith, posted 06-08-2018 12:53 PM NoNukes has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29541
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1054 of 1307 (834553)
06-08-2018 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1053 by NoNukes
06-08-2018 11:57 AM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
The Bible lists a whole bunch of things that are abominations and worse. However gay marriage alone is singled out as the one thing that ought to be a reason for society to BOHICA to bigots. Not buying it, and neither should you.

Nobody is singling out gay marriage except people asking for specifically gay wedding paraphernalia from people whose belief in God forbids gay weddings. That's what the Supreme Court did, Christians aren't doing any singling out of anybody. Ringo says just change your beliefs. Well, God is God, I can't do that. Believers in the God of the Bible are called bigots for having no choice but to act on what they have always believed about God's ordinance of marriage. The Supreme Court did that, Christians aren't doing it. Being called bigots for acting on our beliefs, being sued and prosecuted for acting on our beliefs is a form of persecution. Just call it what it is. As I said we expect to have to adjust to it.

NOne of this is about refusing service to a class of people, it's specifically about weddings, only weddings. Birthdays no problem, Valentine's Day no problem, Cupcake Day no problem, just not special catering for weddings. So your multiple abominations are irrelevant. It's not about personal sins, it's about . weddings.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1053 by NoNukes, posted 06-08-2018 11:57 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1055 by NoNukes, posted 06-08-2018 1:06 PM Faith has responded
 Message 1056 by ringo, posted 06-08-2018 1:17 PM Faith has responded
 Message 1062 by Chiroptera, posted 06-08-2018 2:04 PM Faith has responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 1055 of 1307 (834554)
06-08-2018 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1054 by Faith
06-08-2018 12:53 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
Nobody is singling out gay marriage except people asking for specifically gay wedding paraphernalia from people whose belief in God forbids gay weddings. That's what the Supreme Court did, Christians aren't doing any singling out of anybody

Your comment is off target. I did not say anything about gay people being singled out. My comment was about the cherry picking by some folks regarding which abominations in the Bible they are going to take seriously.

The Supreme Court did not single anyone out. They are making general statements that apply to everyone regardless of their religious affiliation. What the Supreme Court did not do was give fundamentalist beliefs any particular weight.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1054 by Faith, posted 06-08-2018 12:53 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1058 by Faith, posted 06-08-2018 1:38 PM NoNukes has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15125
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 1056 of 1307 (834556)
06-08-2018 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1054 by Faith
06-08-2018 12:53 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
Faith writes:

Ringo says just change your beliefs.


I don't know whether you can change your beliefs or not - but you can change how you act on your beliefs. You could try, for example, to do what Jesus told you to do instead of what Moses told you to do.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1054 by Faith, posted 06-08-2018 12:53 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1057 by Faith, posted 06-08-2018 1:32 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29541
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1057 of 1307 (834558)
06-08-2018 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1056 by ringo
06-08-2018 1:17 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian

I don't know whether you can change your beliefs or not - but you can change how you act on your beliefs. You could try, for example, to do what Jesus told you to do instead of what Moses told you to do.

Jesus told nobody to disobey God, and your theology is not my theology.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1056 by ringo, posted 06-08-2018 1:17 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1060 by ringo, posted 06-08-2018 2:03 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29541
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1058 of 1307 (834559)
06-08-2018 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1055 by NoNukes
06-08-2018 1:06 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
Your comment is off target. I did not say anything about gay people being singled out. My comment was about the cherry picking by some folks regarding which abominations in the Bible they are going to take seriously.

But that isn't true either.

The Supreme Court did not single anyone out. They are making general statements that apply to everyone regardless of their religious affiliation. What the Supreme Court did not do was give fundamentalist beliefs any particular weight.

They legalized gay marriage, redefining it as a civil right, which is a direct challenge to those who believe God created marriage for the purpose of joining the sexes. DIRECT challenge to a specific belief by Bible Christians.

I'm just trying to clarify the reality here. I'm not even trying to change it, but this is what the Supreme Court did.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1055 by NoNukes, posted 06-08-2018 1:06 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1059 by NoNukes, posted 06-08-2018 1:52 PM Faith has responded
 Message 1065 by Chiroptera, posted 06-08-2018 2:16 PM Faith has responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 1059 of 1307 (834561)
06-08-2018 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1058 by Faith
06-08-2018 1:38 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
They legalized gay marriage, redefining it as a civil right, which is a direct challenge to those who believe God created marriage for the purpose of joining the sexes. DIRECT challenge to a specific belief by Bible Christians.

Legalizing interracial marriage was exactly the same kind of challenge to supposedly right-thinking Christians. I am not impressed by your double talk. A lot of things, including a lot of policy enacted by the current administration, are direct challenges to my strongly held Christian beliefs, but that does not mean that those laws are unconstitutional.

What you are complaining about are laws that provide other folks rights. I have no sympathy for that whatsoever.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1058 by Faith, posted 06-08-2018 1:38 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1063 by Faith, posted 06-08-2018 2:11 PM NoNukes has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15125
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 1060 of 1307 (834563)
06-08-2018 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1057 by Faith
06-08-2018 1:32 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
Faith writes:

Jesus told nobody to disobey God, and your theology is not my theology.


God told nobody to persecute gay people. Jesus told people NOT to.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1057 by Faith, posted 06-08-2018 1:32 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1061 by Faith, posted 06-08-2018 2:03 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29541
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1061 of 1307 (834564)
06-08-2018 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1060 by ringo
06-08-2018 2:03 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
Nobody is persecuting gay people.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1060 by ringo, posted 06-08-2018 2:03 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1066 by ringo, posted 06-08-2018 2:17 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6505
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 1062 of 1307 (834565)
06-08-2018 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1054 by Faith
06-08-2018 12:53 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
Nobody is singling out gay marriage except people asking for specifically gay wedding paraphernalia from people whose belief in God forbids gay weddings.

Actually, if you bake a cake for a mixed gendered couple's wedding but not for a same sex couple's wedding, then you are singling out gay people as those who don't get cake at their wedding. I mean, that's pretty much what it means to "single out" someone.

And anti-discrimination laws are based on the idea there are groups of people who have been singled out for unfair treatment and continue to be singled out for unfair treatment, and so the state will specifically recognize them as people whose right to fair treatment will be protected by the state.

-

NOne of this is about refusing service to a class of people, it's specifically about weddings,

Sure it is. It's about whether heterosexual couples get ake for their wedding but gay people have to do without. If you are willing to bake a wedding cake for a mixed gendered couples wedding but you refuse to bake a cake for a same sex couple's wedding you are refusing a service that you ordinarily offer to someone, and refusing the service to someone that Colorado law does not allow you to refuse. Seriously, that is exactly what the words mean.



Progress is not an illusion, it happens, but it is slow and invariably disappointing. - George Orwell

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1054 by Faith, posted 06-08-2018 12:53 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1064 by Faith, posted 06-08-2018 2:14 PM Chiroptera has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29541
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1063 of 1307 (834566)
06-08-2018 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1059 by NoNukes
06-08-2018 1:52 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
Interracial marriage is a false comparison. Opposing that was against the Bible. Interracial marriage is a marriage between the two sexes which is according to God's ordinance making the two to be one flesh. They were not "right thinking Christians," they were opposing the Bible in many ways. Racism itself is contrary to the Bible. We're all children of one set of parents. This argument is twisted and absurd.

A law that grants a "right" that opposes God's law is twisted. But again, this twisted law is going to stand and God's law is going to be denied and those who support God's law are going to be persecuted, because even supposed Christians and supposed lawyers support such twistedness, and that's the way it is.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1059 by NoNukes, posted 06-08-2018 1:52 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1072 by NoNukes, posted 06-08-2018 2:37 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29541
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1064 of 1307 (834567)
06-08-2018 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1062 by Chiroptera
06-08-2018 2:04 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
Right, that's the way things are going, redefining the understanding of millennia, no point in fighting it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1062 by Chiroptera, posted 06-08-2018 2:04 PM Chiroptera has not yet responded

    
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6505
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 1065 of 1307 (834568)
06-08-2018 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1058 by Faith
06-08-2018 1:38 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
They legalized gay marriage,

To be more precise, they pointed out that the state failed to show a legitimate interest in denying the advantages and obligations of marriage to same sex couples, and that the only conclusion the court could reach is that the denial is based on an irrational animosity toward a certain group.

Being singled out for unfair treatment because of animosity and not because of a legitimate state interest is against everyone's civil rights.

In fact, the court also decided that Philips of Masterpiece Cakeshop received unfair treatment due to animosity rather then legitimate state interest, so it kind of protects everyone.



Progress is not an illusion, it happens, but it is slow and invariably disappointing. - George Orwell

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1058 by Faith, posted 06-08-2018 1:38 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1067 by Faith, posted 06-08-2018 2:22 PM Chiroptera has responded

  
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