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Author Topic:   Gay Marriage as an attack on Christianity
ringo
Member
Posts: 15599
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1066 of 1358 (834569)
06-08-2018 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1061 by Faith
06-08-2018 2:03 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
Faith writes:

Nobody is persecuting gay people.


Refusing ANY service to one person while providing it for another is not a symptom of loving thy neighbour. If you can't provide a service indiscriminately, you have no business being in the business at all - either on the basis of Christianity or on the basis of good citizenship.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1061 by Faith, posted 06-08-2018 2:03 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30062
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1067 of 1358 (834570)
06-08-2018 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1065 by Chiroptera
06-08-2018 2:16 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
There is no animosity against gays in the Biblical understanding that marriage was ordained by God for the purpose of joining the two sexes into one flesh. The idea that the rights and obligations of marriage should extend to gays is a bogus idea. But it now rules the land and those who are put in a position of having to deny it publically will be persecuted. It has nothing to do with real civil rights or real unfairness at all, it's just a direct confrontation with the law of God. Calling those who honor the law of God "bigots" and so on is a typical emotion-based way to vilify a class of people being set up for persecution. In Rwanda they called the class set up for annihilation "cockroaches." That's also what they did to the Jews in Germany. Now the class being set up is called "bigots" and "haters" to drum up public feeling against them. Reverse ideology but same tactics of Nazism. That's what's REALLY happening here.

Though right now animosity against Phillips' beliefs is legally condemned, I wouldn't be at all surprised if his "bigotry" overshadowed that in the end.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1065 by Chiroptera, posted 06-08-2018 2:16 PM Chiroptera has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1068 by Chiroptera, posted 06-08-2018 2:30 PM Faith has responded
 Message 1077 by PaulK, posted 06-08-2018 3:22 PM Faith has responded

    
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6528
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 1068 of 1358 (834571)
06-08-2018 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1067 by Faith
06-08-2018 2:22 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
There is no animosity against gays in the Biblical understanding that marriage was ordained by God for the purpose of joining the two sexes into one flesh.

But the First Amendment prohibits the state from using that as a reason for any policy. Hence, no legitimate state interest.



Progress is not an illusion, it happens, but it is slow and invariably disappointing. - George Orwell

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1067 by Faith, posted 06-08-2018 2:22 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1070 by Faith, posted 06-08-2018 2:34 PM Chiroptera has responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6528
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 1069 of 1358 (834572)
06-08-2018 2:34 PM


What about messages to other religiouns?
Thought experiment:

Colorado law also prohibits discrimination based on religion.

Suppose a baker is willing to bake a wedding cake for Christian weddings but not for Jewish weddings?

Is that illegal under Colorado law? Or can the baker claim a First Amendment protection against being compelled to express support for a religious wedding he does not recognize as valid?



Progress is not an illusion, it happens, but it is slow and invariably disappointing. - George Orwell

Replies to this message:
 Message 1071 by Faith, posted 06-08-2018 2:37 PM Chiroptera has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30062
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1070 of 1358 (834573)
06-08-2018 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1068 by Chiroptera
06-08-2018 2:30 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
That is a ridiculous twisting of the First Amendment but again, that's the way things are going, no point in fighting it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1068 by Chiroptera, posted 06-08-2018 2:30 PM Chiroptera has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1080 by Chiroptera, posted 06-08-2018 3:38 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30062
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1071 of 1358 (834574)
06-08-2018 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1069 by Chiroptera
06-08-2018 2:34 PM


Re: What about messages to other religiouns?
there is no biblical ordinance against a wedding between the two sexes whoever they are.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1069 by Chiroptera, posted 06-08-2018 2:34 PM Chiroptera has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1081 by Chiroptera, posted 06-08-2018 3:43 PM Faith has responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 1072 of 1358 (834575)
06-08-2018 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1063 by Faith
06-08-2018 2:11 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
They were not "right thinking Christians," they were opposing the Bible in many ways.

That is not what they claimed. They sounded exactly as you do now.

Racism itself is contrary to the Bible.

That's demonstrably wrong. All kinds of nationalism and xenophobia are well supported in the Bible, as is the notion that whole entire lines of folks are condemned by heritage alone. That kind of thinking can well serve as the foundation of racism, and historically it has done so. You are not proving your point with this.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1063 by Faith, posted 06-08-2018 2:11 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1073 by Faith, posted 06-08-2018 2:44 PM NoNukes has not yet responded
 Message 1074 by Faith, posted 06-08-2018 2:45 PM NoNukes has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30062
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1073 of 1358 (834576)
06-08-2018 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1072 by NoNukes
06-08-2018 2:37 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
No, you are wrong. God's separation of the Jews from the heathen nations, and his harsh judgments of the heathen nations (but He also judged the Jews just as harshly), was about idolatry, not race, but were wrongly turned into a form of racism by the Jews, which can be seen in Jesus' time as the Gentiles are referred to as "dogs." But throughout the Old Testament the "stranger" is welcomed among the Israelites but must become a follower of their God. It's about God, not about race.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1072 by NoNukes, posted 06-08-2018 2:37 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30062
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1074 of 1358 (834577)
06-08-2018 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1072 by NoNukes
06-08-2018 2:37 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
Right, how they "sound" is now the deciding factor, not anything about objective truth. So goes the world.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1072 by NoNukes, posted 06-08-2018 2:37 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1076 by NoNukes, posted 06-08-2018 3:08 PM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6255
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1075 of 1358 (834578)
06-08-2018 2:59 PM


Equality of treatment trumps special interests. That's the prime value that all modern democracies are striving for one way or another by long and meandering means

Another way of saying it is loving your neighbour and doing as you would be done by. Odd that people that call themselves the only 'true' Christians refuse to follow Christian teachings.

Why on earth we spend so much time reasoning with such deviants is even odder.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 1076 of 1358 (834579)
06-08-2018 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1074 by Faith
06-08-2018 2:45 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
Right, how they "sound" is now the deciding factor, not anything about objective truth. So goes the world.

I know that it is pointless to argue with you. I only do it because it gives me a chance to attach my signature file to responses to you about bigotry. I know that is a silly motivation on my part, but the irony is quite compelling.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1074 by Faith, posted 06-08-2018 2:45 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1079 by Faith, posted 06-08-2018 3:38 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14499
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1077 of 1358 (834581)
06-08-2018 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1067 by Faith
06-08-2018 2:22 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
quote:

There is no animosity against gays in the Biblical understanding that marriage was ordained by God for the purpose of joining the two sexes into one flesh.

But there is in the idea that gay couples should be denied the secular benefits of marriage. And THAT is what this is really about.

Let us not forget that “Christians” were opposing the extension of those benefits to gay couples before gays were allowed to marry. And that is one of the reasons why giving gays the full legal status of marriage was necessary.

There is no “Biblical understanding” that gay partners should be denied the insurance benefits given to spouses, is there? But that is one of the real issues here.

Indeed your ideas about what marriage should be aren’t even a real issue. You aren’t compelled to enter into a gay marriage. Your church isn’t compelled to hold gay wedding services. There’s no real infringement of any liberty but the “liberty” to discriminate against gays in the secular sphere. You don’t have the right to compell the government to enforce your religious views, nor do you even have a religiour duty to demand it.

Your religious arguments are just a pretext to hide your bigotry.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1067 by Faith, posted 06-08-2018 2:22 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1078 by Faith, posted 06-08-2018 3:35 PM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30062
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1078 of 1358 (834583)
06-08-2018 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1077 by PaulK
06-08-2018 3:22 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
Benefits were extended to married couples to encourage marriage between the sexes and the raising of children. There's really no rational basis for extending them to any other kind of "couple" although I wouldn't fight finding some way to do it without official marriage myself, some of them anyway.

I guess nobody will ever appreciate the concept of protecting marriage as a social institution, as opposed to this ridiculous idea that gay marriage affects individual heterosexuals' marriages. That is such a bogus piece of nonsense.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1077 by PaulK, posted 06-08-2018 3:22 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1084 by PaulK, posted 06-08-2018 3:50 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30062
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1079 of 1358 (834584)
06-08-2018 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1076 by NoNukes
06-08-2018 3:08 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
How wrong you are though thinking you are right.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1076 by NoNukes, posted 06-08-2018 3:08 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6528
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 1080 of 1358 (834585)
06-08-2018 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1070 by Faith
06-08-2018 2:34 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
That is a ridiculous twisting of the First Amendment but again....

I'm pretty sure that it's a standard reading of the First Amendment and I suspect that even a lot of conservatives would disagree with you here.



Progress is not an illusion, it happens, but it is slow and invariably disappointing. - George Orwell

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1070 by Faith, posted 06-08-2018 2:34 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1082 by Faith, posted 06-08-2018 3:44 PM Chiroptera has not yet responded

  
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