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Author Topic:   Gay Marriage as an attack on Christianity
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14225
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1096 of 1258 (834621)
06-09-2018 1:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1090 by Faith
06-08-2018 7:03 PM


Re: What about messages to other religiouns?
quote:

Only half a century ago "God" would have meant the Christian God in America and probably Europe too. Yes that has changed. We've been through a huge sea change since then, going toward all out paganism, or maybe Islam will take us over first. Could be neck and neck.

Not true. At the time of the American Revolution Deists had a more expansive view of God.

quote:

Yes we will now have a pagan interpretation of our Constitution as we are getting a pagan culture that would support it. Quite right.

Let us note that your “pagan interpretation” is the original intent, and that you wish to twist it so that the government gets to decide which religions people are free to believe. Jefferson and Madison would have been apalled.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1090 by Faith, posted 06-08-2018 7:03 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10856
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1097 of 1258 (834625)
06-09-2018 3:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1095 by Faith
06-08-2018 11:35 PM


Re: What about messages to other religiouns?
Islam already gets special rights to protect their honor code and Sharia Law in their areas; we've already got a Jeseuit [sic] professor calling the Constitution so antiquated it should be done away with.

Yes, and we also have individual idiot fundamentalists who spew hate and bigotry. One NC pastor said that gay folks should be fenced off from the rest of humanity until they die off. One individual opinion means little and is not representative.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1095 by Faith, posted 06-08-2018 11:35 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1105 by Faith, posted 06-09-2018 6:39 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 14906
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 1098 of 1258 (834650)
06-09-2018 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1090 by Faith
06-08-2018 7:03 PM


Re: What about messages to other religiouns?
Faith writes:

Only half a century ago "God" would have meant the Christian God in America and probably Europe too.


The problem with freedom of religion is that if you extend rights to Presbyterians who are wrong and Methodists who are wrong and Anglicans who are wrong, you also have to extend rights to Baptists who are wrong and even Catholics who are wrong. That inevitably leads to extending rights to Jews who are wrong and then everything just starts slipping down the slope.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1090 by Faith, posted 06-08-2018 7:03 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1100 by Faith, posted 06-09-2018 5:54 PM ringo has responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6493
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 1099 of 1258 (834653)
06-09-2018 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1095 by Faith
06-08-2018 11:35 PM


Constitutional freedom of religion and its discontents
Both religions seek to grow their population to outnumber others and to gain political power thereby.

Huh. Many decades ago I was a Baptist, and this certainly describes Baptists. And the Religious Right in general.

-

Islam already gets special rights to protect their honor code and Sharia Law in their areas....

Are you talking about the Middle East or Indonesia? 'Cause here in the US, where our Constitutional laws apply, Muslims don't have "areas." And Muslims have the same right as Jews to enter into personal contracts with each other consistent with their religious codes, and it's possible that state and municipal agencies may give the same consideration to the beliefs of Muslims as they do to Jews and Amish and such.

But in all cases, no contract or special consideration can violate the ordinary secular law, including the US or state constitutions.

Fun fact: if a Muslim bakers gets to refuse to bake a wedding cake for a same sex couple, it won't be because they live in an "area" where Sharia is protected; it'll be because they live in a state that hasn't added "sexual orientation" to their anti-discrimination statute.

-

...we've already got a Jeseuit professor calling the Constitution so antiquated it should be done away with.

Already? In a previous post (Message 1092) you stated:

After the Constitution was accepted many Christians protested that it betrayed the Christian foundations of the nation.

As you rightly point out, all sorts of people all over the place have always criticized this or that part of the Constitution or even the whole thing. I don't really see a worrisome trend here just because some Jesuit somewhere said something.



Progress is not an illusion, it happens, but it is slow and invariably disappointing. - George Orwell

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1095 by Faith, posted 06-08-2018 11:35 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1101 by Faith, posted 06-09-2018 5:56 PM Chiroptera has not yet responded
 Message 1103 by Faith, posted 06-09-2018 6:27 PM Chiroptera has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29154
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1100 of 1258 (834658)
06-09-2018 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1098 by ringo
06-09-2018 11:58 AM


Re: What about messages to other religiouns?
I'm only concerned about the ones who want to rule the world and are willing to do it by violence. I think the Founders were very naïve about that. If it was just a matter of individuals practing their beliefs, and their beliefs are not violent or destructive of society, no problem, but unfortunately that isn't the case with all religions. Even Hinduism has a violent side, at least in India, where they attack and kill Christians. But I don't think it has an agenda to make everybody Hindu. (I personally know an Indian pastor who has worked hard to build his church and an orphanage who would like to come to the US to go to seminary and get his daughters into school here but despite some American support doesn't have the money for it. He's survived typhoid twice and so far his family has survived the Hindu violence. Anyone want to contribute to his education in the US?)

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1098 by ringo, posted 06-09-2018 11:58 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1118 by ringo, posted 06-10-2018 2:09 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29154
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1101 of 1258 (834659)
06-09-2018 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1099 by Chiroptera
06-09-2018 1:02 PM


Re: Constitutional freedom of religion and its discontents
Baptists don't have an agenda to rule the world, no Kalifa or Jihad or Inquisition that I know of.

As for Muslims having their own areas I've heard that Dearborn Michigan is pretty much a "no go" zone. Perhaps I heard wrong but that's what I heard.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1099 by Chiroptera, posted 06-09-2018 1:02 PM Chiroptera has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1102 by Modulous, posted 06-09-2018 6:17 PM Faith has responded

    
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 1102 of 1258 (834660)
06-09-2018 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1101 by Faith
06-09-2018 5:56 PM


Re: Constitutional freedom of religion and its discontents
As for Muslims having their own areas I've heard that Dearborn Michigan is pretty much a "no go" zone. Perhaps I heard wrong but that's what I heard.

Yes, that's very wrong. It's classic right-wing fear-mongering targeted at people like you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1101 by Faith, posted 06-09-2018 5:56 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1104 by Faith, posted 06-09-2018 6:28 PM Modulous has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29154
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1103 of 1258 (834661)
06-09-2018 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1099 by Chiroptera
06-09-2018 1:02 PM


Re: Constitutional freedom of religion and its discontents
I don't really see a worrisome trend here just because some Jesuit somewhere said something.

I could recommend some books on the Jesuits that might change your mind.

At least John Adams seems to have been up on the Jesuits
:

“This society [Jesuits] has been a greater calamity to mankind than the French Revolution, or Napoleon's despotism or ideology. It has obstructed the progress of reformation and the improvement of the human mind in society much longer and more fatally.

And another source:

In 1814, the Society of Jesus was restored after being suppressed for 41 years. Not everyone welcomed them back, as this letter of John Adams to Thomas Jefferson attests:

I do not like the reappearance of the Jesuits…. Shall we not have regular swarms of them here, in as many disguises as only a king of the gipsies can assume, dressed as printers, publishers, writers and schoolmasters? If ever there was a body of men who merited damnation on earth and in Hell, it is this society of Loyola’s. Nevertheless, we are compelled by our system of religious toleration to offer them an asylum.

John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, May 5, 1816


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1099 by Chiroptera, posted 06-09-2018 1:02 PM Chiroptera has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29154
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1104 of 1258 (834662)
06-09-2018 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1102 by Modulous
06-09-2018 6:17 PM


Re: Constitutional freedom of religion and its discontents
Now I've got two competing unsupported assertions.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1102 by Modulous, posted 06-09-2018 6:17 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1107 by Modulous, posted 06-09-2018 6:47 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29154
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1105 of 1258 (834663)
06-09-2018 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1097 by NoNukes
06-09-2018 3:21 AM


Re: What about messages to other religiouns?
we've already got a Jeseuit [sic] professor calling the Constitution so antiquated it should be done away with.

One individual opinion means little and is not representative.

See Message 1103


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1097 by NoNukes, posted 06-09-2018 3:21 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29154
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1106 of 1258 (834664)
06-09-2018 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1086 by PaulK
06-08-2018 4:15 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
You have to admit that if the benefits of marriage are to help raise children it makes no sense to give them to a childless heterosexual couple while denying them to a gay couple with children.

And yet that is what you wish to do. Obviously it is not about raising children.

It's about heterosexual unions, which is the natural source of children, that principle is what the benefits honor. Other funds are available for other situations anyway.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1086 by PaulK, posted 06-08-2018 4:15 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1112 by PaulK, posted 06-10-2018 2:58 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 1125 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-20-2018 3:05 AM Faith has responded

    
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 1107 of 1258 (834665)
06-09-2018 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1104 by Faith
06-09-2018 6:28 PM


Re: Constitutional freedom of religion and its discontents
Now I've got two competing unsupported assertions.

This would have been the point where you would have sought the evidence to verify the claim of no-go zones. I mean, I can see pictures of Dearborn with people going about their business peacefully. I see strip clubs, bars, places you can buy a bacon sandwich. I see police on the streets.

I don't find citizens that live there claiming it's no-go zone. I do find right wing outlets posting images of Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan or outright photoshopped pictures claiming they are from Dearborn. But I was able to locate the source of those images and it turns out they were bullshit.

So I have
1) Pictures of Dearborn looking like any other city of equal size.
2) Pictures of police in Dearborn
3) People lying about Dearborn to make it seem like its somehow a no-go zone.
4) People lying about other no-go zones in this propaganda war.

So I'm going with the position that it is yet another lie about no-go zones with high confidence. You have, what? Infowars?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1104 by Faith, posted 06-09-2018 6:28 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1108 by Faith, posted 06-09-2018 7:03 PM Modulous has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29154
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1108 of 1258 (834666)
06-09-2018 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1107 by Modulous
06-09-2018 6:47 PM


Re: Constitutional freedom of religion and its discontents
Yeah I'm not up to doing the research to argue with you about it so I'll let it stand. I do kind of wonder what you'd think if you visited Dearborn and stayed for a while.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1107 by Modulous, posted 06-09-2018 6:47 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1109 by Modulous, posted 06-09-2018 7:52 PM Faith has responded
 Message 1110 by NoNukes, posted 06-10-2018 1:02 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 1109 of 1258 (834668)
06-09-2018 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1108 by Faith
06-09-2018 7:03 PM


Re: Constitutional freedom of religion and its discontents
Yeah I'm not up to doing the research to argue with you about it so I'll let it stand. I do kind of wonder what you'd think if you visited Dearborn and stayed for a while.

Well I used to live right where this video was taken (the sign in the thumbnail where you just see 'TER' in the top left was visible out my window)

Then, for a while, I lived exactly opposite to this mosque

So perhaps you need not wonder?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1108 by Faith, posted 06-09-2018 7:03 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1111 by Faith, posted 06-10-2018 1:14 AM Modulous has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10856
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 1110 of 1258 (834682)
06-10-2018 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 1108 by Faith
06-09-2018 7:03 PM


Re: Constitutional freedom of religion and its discontents
Yeah I'm not up to doing the research to argue with you about it so I'll let it stand.

I can guarantee you that I'll be reciting this line of discussion in a future thread. This was flat out pathetic on your part.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1108 by Faith, posted 06-09-2018 7:03 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
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