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Author Topic:   Gay Marriage as an attack on Christianity
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1126 of 1484 (835233)
06-20-2018 5:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1125 by Hyroglyphx
06-20-2018 3:05 AM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
I thought I was talking about the basis for our laws which I surmised had the natural family in mind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1125 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-20-2018 3:05 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1127 by ringo, posted 06-20-2018 3:28 PM Faith has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1127 of 1484 (835256)
06-20-2018 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1126 by Faith
06-20-2018 5:27 AM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
Faith writes:
I thought I was talking about the basis for our laws which I surmised had the natural family in mind.
The "natural family" is anybody who provides the child with what he/she needs physically, emotionally, etc. Don't confuse the "natural family" with the biological family. Any biological entity can have offspring; it's what they do with/for the offspring that makes a family - and that is what our laws should reflect.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1126 by Faith, posted 06-20-2018 5:27 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1128 by Faith, posted 06-20-2018 3:31 PM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1128 of 1484 (835258)
06-20-2018 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1127 by ringo
06-20-2018 3:28 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
I'm talking about what I understand the LAW to have had in mind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1127 by ringo, posted 06-20-2018 3:28 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1129 by PaulK, posted 06-20-2018 3:39 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 1130 by ringo, posted 06-20-2018 3:47 PM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17815
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 1129 of 1484 (835259)
06-20-2018 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1128 by Faith
06-20-2018 3:31 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
But it’s funny how those considerations are only important when they can be used to deny rights to gays.
If it was actually a point of principle I would have thought thst you would at least be agitating to reform the law so it followed the principle. But no. It’s just deny rights to gays.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1128 by Faith, posted 06-20-2018 3:31 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 1130 of 1484 (835261)
06-20-2018 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1128 by Faith
06-20-2018 3:31 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
Faith writes:
I'm talking about what I understand the LAW to have had in mind.
What the law originally had in mind is not the only consideration. That's why we have courts to interpret the law and why we have legislatures to adjust the law to fit changing circumstances. Originally, the law didn't need to concern itself with cars and aircraft but now it does. Originally, the law didn't need to treat blacks, women and gays as humans but now it does.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1128 by Faith, posted 06-20-2018 3:31 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1131 by Faith, posted 06-20-2018 8:37 PM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1131 of 1484 (835282)
06-20-2018 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1130 by ringo
06-20-2018 3:47 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
Equating gays with blacks and women is a monumental failure of basic logic, but that's the way the world is going and there's no stopping it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1130 by ringo, posted 06-20-2018 3:47 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1132 by Tangle, posted 06-21-2018 3:01 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 1133 by Chiroptera, posted 06-21-2018 9:57 AM Faith has replied
 Message 1134 by ringo, posted 06-21-2018 11:36 AM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 1132 of 1484 (835303)
06-21-2018 3:01 AM
Reply to: Message 1131 by Faith
06-20-2018 8:37 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
Faith writes:
Equating gays with blacks and women is a monumental failure of basic logic, but that's the way the world is going and there's no stopping it.
If the whole world was going that way it would be cause for enormous celebration but sadly it's really only in the 1st world that people are beginning to be treated equally and laws are in place to protect them against prejudice and discrimination. But it'll happen everywhere eventually, god willing.
It's a very Christian thing - love thy neighbour and do as you would be done by. You should try it, it might get you saved.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1131 by Faith, posted 06-20-2018 8:37 PM Faith has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 1133 of 1484 (835311)
06-21-2018 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1131 by Faith
06-20-2018 8:37 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
Equating gays with blacks and women is a monumental failure of basic logic....
I've noticed that when people complain about a "failure of logic", they're not really pointing to a failure of the logic itself but that the other side doesn't just accept their premises without question.


What do you despise? By this are you truly known. -- Frank Herbert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1131 by Faith, posted 06-20-2018 8:37 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1135 by Faith, posted 06-21-2018 3:38 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1134 of 1484 (835314)
06-21-2018 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1131 by Faith
06-20-2018 8:37 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
Faith writes:
Equating gays with blacks and women is a monumental failure of basic logic....
Feel free to point out the logic.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1131 by Faith, posted 06-20-2018 8:37 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1135 of 1484 (835329)
06-21-2018 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1133 by Chiroptera
06-21-2018 9:57 AM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
I've noticed that when people complain about a "failure of logic", they're not really pointing to a failure of the logic itself but that the other side doesn't just accept their premises without question.
Well, then, perhaps there's nothing I can say to defend the point in a way you would accept, but the logical problem is that gayness is not a natural inborn category as being black or female is, it's primarily a behavior or an inclination. I know the argument is that people just seem to be born gay, but we're all "born with" whatever sins are dominant in us so that doesn't prove there is a category of homosexuality that is just natural. Christians often come up against sins we find extremely hard to "mortify," that is, put to death, which is what we're told to do with sins. Some sins are more ingrained than others in each of us and harder to put to death, it takes longer, it's more of a struggle. That is probably the case with some forms of homosexuality. And of course unless you're a Christian you don't have any desire even to try to put it to death so it just gets more and more ingrained.
That's all just an attempt to explain why homosexuality can seem like it's just your inborn identity, and I appreciate that the impression is strong and convincing. But it's not an inborn identity the way being born black or white or male or female is. It's just not. And yet the law is now treating it as if it is. Logically the law is wrong.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1133 by Chiroptera, posted 06-21-2018 9:57 AM Chiroptera has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1136 by ringo, posted 06-21-2018 4:03 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 1137 by Taq, posted 06-21-2018 5:00 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 1138 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-21-2018 5:56 PM Faith has replied
 Message 1150 by Tangle, posted 06-22-2018 3:08 AM Faith has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 1136 of 1484 (835332)
06-21-2018 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1135 by Faith
06-21-2018 3:38 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
Faith writes:
...the logical problem is that gayness is not a natural inborn category as being black or female is....
That isn't a "logical problem". It's you not recognizing what is commonly accepted as a fact. Similarly, not accepting that men landed on the moon is not a "logical problem".

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1135 by Faith, posted 06-21-2018 3:38 PM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9944
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


(3)
Message 1137 of 1484 (835333)
06-21-2018 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1135 by Faith
06-21-2018 3:38 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
Faith writes:
Well, then, perhaps there's nothing I can say to defend the point in a way you would accept, but the logical problem is that gayness is not a natural inborn category as being black or female is, it's primarily a behavior or an inclination.
I don't see what that has to do with it. What religion you belong to is a choice and not something you are born with, and yet we consider religious freedom to be a human right. We choose what we will say, and we consider freedom of speech to be a fundamental human right. We choose to have firearms, and at least in the US we consider that to be a basic right.
Isn't the whole point of freedom being able to choose who you are and how you live your own life?
Christians often come up against sins we find extremely hard to "mortify," that is, put to death, which is what we're told to do with sins. Some sins are more ingrained than others in each of us and harder to put to death, it takes longer, it's more of a struggle. That is probably the case with some forms of homosexuality. And of course unless you're a Christian you don't have any desire even to try to put it to death so it just gets more and more ingrained.
I don't see why one person must live under the rules of someone else's religion. Shouldn't people in a free country be able to live their lives as they want as long as their actions allow others to do the same?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1135 by Faith, posted 06-21-2018 3:38 PM Faith has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 1138 of 1484 (835341)
06-21-2018 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1135 by Faith
06-21-2018 3:38 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
the logical problem is that gayness is not a natural inborn category as being black or female is, it's primarily a behavior or an inclination. I know the argument is that people just seem to be born gay, but we're all "born with" whatever sins are dominant in us so that doesn't prove there is a category of homosexuality that is just natural.
If it is possible for a human being to be born with anatomically male and female parts, then why is it impossible to think that people can be born homosexual? Transsexuals are born that way, did nothing to cause it, and really have no recourse to change it. It just happened when they were forming in the womb. Why is that so difficult to imagine for homosexuals?

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1135 by Faith, posted 06-21-2018 3:38 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1139 by Faith, posted 06-21-2018 11:33 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1139 of 1484 (835346)
06-21-2018 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1138 by Hyroglyphx
06-21-2018 5:56 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
There are no known physical components to homosexuality, they are either males or females like the rest of us, it's entirely an emotional/mental/psychological condition. That is also the case with transsexuals. The only physical sexual anomaly is hermaphroditism and that is very rare and that doesn't even necessarily have an emotional component. As I said I understand the compelling feelings involved -- but they are feelings, not the body itself. And again, we all have urges that are called sin that can also be quite compelling. Most sins I'm sure you wouldn't want to give civil rights status.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1138 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-21-2018 5:56 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1140 by DrJones*, posted 06-21-2018 11:46 PM Faith has replied
 Message 1142 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-22-2018 12:24 AM Faith has replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2283
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 1140 of 1484 (835347)
06-21-2018 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1139 by Faith
06-21-2018 11:33 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
it's entirely an emotional/mental/psychological condition.
just like religion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1139 by Faith, posted 06-21-2018 11:33 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1141 by Faith, posted 06-22-2018 12:13 AM DrJones* has replied

  
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