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Author Topic:   Gay Marriage as an attack on Christianity
Faith
Member
Posts: 30168
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1171 of 1358 (835448)
06-23-2018 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1170 by ringo
06-23-2018 1:03 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
Supernatural means no recognizable natural connection between the cause and the effect except a symbolic one.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1170 by ringo, posted 06-23-2018 1:03 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1172 by ringo, posted 06-23-2018 3:04 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15746
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 1172 of 1358 (835450)
06-23-2018 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1171 by Faith
06-23-2018 2:48 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
Faith writes:

Supernatural means no recognizable natural connection between the cause and the effect except a symbolic one.


Your inability to recognize a natural connection doesn't mean there isn't one. Jumping to the conclusion of "supernatural" is superstition.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1171 by Faith, posted 06-23-2018 2:48 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1173 by Faith, posted 06-23-2018 3:20 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30168
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1173 of 1358 (835457)
06-23-2018 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1172 by ringo
06-23-2018 3:04 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
There isn't a natural connction.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1172 by ringo, posted 06-23-2018 3:04 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1175 by ringo, posted 06-23-2018 3:31 PM Faith has responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 1174 of 1358 (835458)
06-23-2018 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1167 by Faith
06-23-2018 12:50 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
I'm not talking about crimes, I'm talking about private sins, and I was an atheist at the time too.

We are talking about Tangle's perspective and not your own.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1167 by Faith, posted 06-23-2018 12:50 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15746
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 1175 of 1358 (835459)
06-23-2018 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1173 by Faith
06-23-2018 3:20 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
Faith writes:

There isn't a natural connction.


That's what we always say until we find one.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1173 by Faith, posted 06-23-2018 3:20 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1179 by Faith, posted 06-23-2018 10:54 PM ringo has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6358
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1176 of 1358 (835476)
06-23-2018 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1163 by Faith
06-23-2018 12:22 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
Faith writes:

Yeah I used to believe there were no consequences to sin too, that it was all superstitious garbage,

You were right.

so I pushed the envelope pretty far and God smacked me down pretty hard for it,

Delusional garbage. You pushed no envelope and god did nothing.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1163 by Faith, posted 06-23-2018 12:22 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6358
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1177 of 1358 (835477)
06-23-2018 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1165 by Faith
06-23-2018 12:36 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
Faith writes:

That implies there is no such thing as sin.

Of course there isn't, it's just another religious invention.

I found out there is.

No you didn't.

And the consequences are pretty clearly supernatural.

No they weren't

Tangle may not have the courage to push the envelope as far as I did, which would suggest to me that he knows it's not superstitious garbage.

I know it's superstitious garbage. Now what?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1165 by Faith, posted 06-23-2018 12:36 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6358
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1178 of 1358 (835478)
06-23-2018 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1167 by Faith
06-23-2018 12:50 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
Faith writes:

I'm not talking about crimes, I'm talking about private sins,

There is no such thing as a private sin.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1167 by Faith, posted 06-23-2018 12:50 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30168
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1179 of 1358 (835492)
06-23-2018 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1175 by ringo
06-23-2018 3:31 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
There isn't a natural connction.

That's what we always say until we find one.

Let me give you an example from scripture then. King David committed the sins of seducing Bathsheba, his neighbor's wife, and when she got pregnant having the neighbor killed so he wouldn't find out. This is understood by most preachers I've heard to have been the cause of the death of his infant son who was born to Bathsheba, and the rape of his daughter Tamar by his son Amnon, and the murder of Amnon by his son Absalom and the attempt by Absalom to take his throne, followed by Absalom's death. There are no natural connections between the sins and their consequences here, they are all spiritual or symbolic, in that they involve sexual sin and murder.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1175 by ringo, posted 06-23-2018 3:31 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1180 by ringo, posted 06-24-2018 2:28 PM Faith has responded
 Message 1182 by NoNukes, posted 06-24-2018 11:10 PM Faith has responded
 Message 1186 by Pollux, posted 06-25-2018 1:24 AM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15746
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 1180 of 1358 (835543)
06-24-2018 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1179 by Faith
06-23-2018 10:54 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
Faith writes:

There are no natural connections between the sins and their consequences here, they are all spiritual or symbolic....


You do understand what a symbol is, don't you? You can make a symbol of anything to make a point. It's a symbol because it isn't real. It isn't evidence for the supernatural.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1179 by Faith, posted 06-23-2018 10:54 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1181 by Faith, posted 06-24-2018 7:04 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30168
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1181 of 1358 (835551)
06-24-2018 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1180 by ringo
06-24-2018 2:28 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
A symbol is a symbol because it shares the same content or meaning as the thing it symbolizes. The sin was adultery and murder, the consequences were rape and murder.

One amazing thing about history as shown in the Bible is that history itself, events the4mselves, are symbolic of other things. The spiritual nature of the universe is unrecognized for the most part but it is real and staggeringly impressive.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1180 by ringo, posted 06-24-2018 2:28 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1190 by ringo, posted 06-25-2018 11:38 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 1182 of 1358 (835553)
06-24-2018 11:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1179 by Faith
06-23-2018 10:54 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
This is understood by most preachers I've heard to have been the cause of the death of his infant son who was born to Bathsheba

That's all fine, and a great summary of what the Bible records. The problem with that is that we don't see that kind of connection in very many cases of adultery and murder.

Have you ever heard the story about Lazarus and the rich man? Do you remember when it was that God's justice was applied?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1179 by Faith, posted 06-23-2018 10:54 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1183 by Faith, posted 06-25-2018 12:20 AM NoNukes has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30168
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1183 of 1358 (835554)
06-25-2018 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 1182 by NoNukes
06-24-2018 11:10 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
If you pay attention to your own life you might be able to recognize the kind of correspondence I'm talking about. Adultery and murder were King David's sins, I assume they are probably not yours, but whatever yours are, perhaps some you remember from your youth, you may be able to see God's dealings with them somewhere in your own personal history.

But the point if the example was just to answer ringo's claim that sin must have a natural consequence, like eating the wrong foods leads to heart attacks and that sort of thing.

I don't get your question about Lazarus and the rich man.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1182 by NoNukes, posted 06-24-2018 11:10 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1184 by NoNukes, posted 06-25-2018 12:56 AM Faith has responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 1184 of 1358 (835556)
06-25-2018 12:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1183 by Faith
06-25-2018 12:20 AM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
I don't get your question about Lazarus and the rich man.

Luke 16:19-31.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1183 by Faith, posted 06-25-2018 12:20 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1185 by Faith, posted 06-25-2018 1:06 AM NoNukes has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30168
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1185 of 1358 (835557)
06-25-2018 1:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1184 by NoNukes
06-25-2018 12:56 AM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
I reread it although I know it pretty well anyway, but I still don't get what you are trying to say.

The rich man went to hell after Lazarus died. Is that what you are referring to?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1184 by NoNukes, posted 06-25-2018 12:56 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1188 by NoNukes, posted 06-25-2018 10:02 AM Faith has responded

    
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