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Author Topic:   Gay Marriage as an attack on Christianity
Pollux
Member (Idle past 1 days)
Posts: 237
Joined: 11-13-2011


Message 1186 of 1307 (835558)
06-25-2018 1:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1179 by Faith
06-23-2018 10:54 PM


David's sins
The Bible states that God struck Bathsheba's child with it being sick for a week before dying. It seems rather harsh on the child when the adulterers were allowed to live, despite by the law they were supposed to be stoned.
Then there are the innocent 70,000 of David's subjects killed merely because God caused David to have a census of his army. It seems that even God was sickened by that slaughter He had ordered and eventually stopped it. I know that the later version in Chronicles says Satan stirred up David but Samuel is explicit in saying God did it.

Are these fair actions?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1179 by Faith, posted 06-23-2018 10:54 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1187 by Faith, posted 06-25-2018 1:29 AM Pollux has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29569
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1187 of 1307 (835559)
06-25-2018 1:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1186 by Pollux
06-25-2018 1:24 AM


Re: David's sins
We are supposed to learn from these things how the Law of God works. Our own children suffer for our sins, the people under a King suffer for his. David pleaded for them himself. When you realize that your own sins are going to cause your children to suffer it is a very horrifying thought. I think we'd all rather suffer for our own than have that happen. But it does happen. It's the way the moral law of the universe is wired. It's the same now as it is shown to be in the Bible. At least David knew he would some day see the baby who died in heaven.

But David suffered terrifically for all the consequences of his sin in the sufferings of his children. Probably worse than being stoned to death.

Satan can't do anything without God's willing or allowing it.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1186 by Pollux, posted 06-25-2018 1:24 AM Pollux has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1191 by ringo, posted 06-25-2018 11:41 AM Faith has responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 1188 of 1307 (835569)
06-25-2018 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 1185 by Faith
06-25-2018 1:06 AM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
I reread it although I know it pretty well anyway, but I still don't get what you are trying to say.

What I was saying is not important. I was hoping that a Christian would understand what Jesus was saying. Given our past interactions, I don't think there is much point in my injecting any of my own thoughts here. Let's leave it at that.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1185 by Faith, posted 06-25-2018 1:06 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1189 by Faith, posted 06-25-2018 10:19 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29569
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1189 of 1307 (835571)
06-25-2018 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 1188 by NoNukes
06-25-2018 10:02 AM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
If you're going to insult me by suggesting I don't know what Jesus is saying I think you really do have to explain to me what you meant.

ABE: By the way, I don't remember things, NN, I don't know what our history has been except that we've been at odds for some time

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1188 by NoNukes, posted 06-25-2018 10:02 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15144
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 1190 of 1307 (835572)
06-25-2018 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1181 by Faith
06-24-2018 7:04 PM


Re: Opinion piece from the Guardian
Faith writes:

A symbol is a symbol because it shares the same content or meaning as the thing it symbolizes.


A symbol is a symbol because somebody has imposed a meaning on it. An eagle is not inherently American. It's a symbol of America because people attribute to it the qualities that they wish they had, qualities that it doesn't necessarily have in reality.

Faith writes:

The spiritual nature of the universe is unrecognized for the most part but it is real and staggeringly impressive.


That "spiritual nature" is also something that you have imposed on reality, not something that is really there.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1181 by Faith, posted 06-24-2018 7:04 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15144
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 1191 of 1307 (835573)
06-25-2018 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 1187 by Faith
06-25-2018 1:29 AM


Re: David's sins
Faith writes:

We are supposed to learn from these things how the Law of God works.


What we learn is that your God id unjust.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1187 by Faith, posted 06-25-2018 1:29 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1192 by Faith, posted 06-25-2018 5:42 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29569
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1192 of 1307 (835597)
06-25-2018 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1191 by ringo
06-25-2018 11:41 AM


Re: David's sins
What we learn is that your God id unjust.

The thing is, He's THE God, not just my God, and that means you are also necessarily under His justice, because there is no other justice, His justice runs the universe. Literally runs it, it's the Moral Law that is sketched out in the Old Testament that determines all the events that happen on this Earth. They are too complex and interwoven for us to track with any certainty, whether on a personal or a national or a global scale, but I think it's sometimes possible to identify cause and effect in our own lives, and on a larger scale when certain trends pile up we can begin to discern how things are going to play out in the future.

Although as spelled out in various biblical accounts it seems harsh to us I accept on faith that it is actually perfect justice and that believers will be able to appreciate that more completely when we're finally with Him. Those who reject Him and call Him unjust are in a sad position. Jesus would save you from it, however, if you like Him better than His Father. Which I think is ridiculous since they are One God together, but anyway....

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1191 by ringo, posted 06-25-2018 11:41 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1193 by ringo, posted 06-25-2018 5:59 PM Faith has responded
 Message 1196 by PaulK, posted 06-26-2018 12:03 AM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15144
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 1193 of 1307 (835598)
06-25-2018 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1192 by Faith
06-25-2018 5:42 PM


Re: David's sins
Faith writes:

The thing is, He's THE God, not just my God....


No, he's just another fictional character - and not a very plausible one at that. You've made up your own caricature of the Biblical God, who's just an amalgamation of characters made up by a multitude of authors anyway.

If there is a real God, he/she/it is nothing like what you imagine. And what you call "justice" is worthy of nothing but contempt.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1192 by Faith, posted 06-25-2018 5:42 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1194 by Faith, posted 06-25-2018 6:11 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29569
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1194 of 1307 (835600)
06-25-2018 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1193 by ringo
06-25-2018 5:59 PM


Re: David's sins
Unfortunately your view is shared by a lot of people here, I hope not everyone.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1193 by ringo, posted 06-25-2018 5:59 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1195 by ringo, posted 06-25-2018 6:18 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15144
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 1195 of 1307 (835601)
06-25-2018 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1194 by Faith
06-25-2018 6:11 PM


Re: David's sins
Faith writes:

Unfortunately your view is shared by a lot of people here, I hope not everyone.


Unfortunately your view is shared by too many people in the world. We need to keep pointing out how you're wrong.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1194 by Faith, posted 06-25-2018 6:11 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14346
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1196 of 1307 (835609)
06-26-2018 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1192 by Faith
06-25-2018 5:42 PM


Justice
According to Calvinist theology we are afflicted with a “sin nature” that forces us to sin.

According to Calvinist theology only those God chooses - a choice we cannot influence in any way whatsoever - will be freed from this “sin nature”

According to Calvinist theology our punishment will be infinite.

A just God would cure us and punish the person who afflicted us - which would be himself. No just God would inflict infinite punishement for finite crimes - what would be the point. It doesn’t work as deterrence, it goes beyond retribution and no reformation is possible.

Calvinism does not propose a just God.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1192 by Faith, posted 06-25-2018 5:42 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1197 by Faith, posted 06-26-2018 12:23 AM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29569
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1197 of 1307 (835610)
06-26-2018 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1196 by PaulK
06-26-2018 12:03 AM


Re: Justice
Calvinism is simply the truest interpretation of what the bible says. The sin nature is implied throughout the Bible and ought to be recognized even in our own personal experience it seems to me.

You disagree of course.

As usual you present it in such a way as to deny personal responsibility. We always have a choice at our own level, we can't know anything about God's level except what the Bible tells us, and to let it deprive us of personal choice is a big mistake. I feel reassured knowing that whatever happens to me has a just cause even if I don't understand it, and that I can talk to God about it and maybe begin to understand it. The idea that things just happen randomly is not at all reassuring, just makes us pawns of incomprehensible and unpredictable and unrectifiable forces. After this life our destiny is sealed, yes, but during this life we have lots of opportunities for changing in response to affliction, for reformation, for turning away from its cause, which means it does work as deterrence.

You don't know if you are chosen or not so what does it matter? If you have a desire to be freed from the sin nature you can be freed from it, that's what matters. If you have no such desire so much the less should it matter to you.

I think what you are missing is that our sins ARE infinite because they are sins against an infinite and holy God. We're made in the image of God, which is no light thing. Our sins had the "power" to cause the devastation and wreckage of the whole planet in the Flood of Noah and are building up to the final destruction of the planet. God takes us very seriously and takes sin extremely seriously. The whole point of the Bible is to teach us about God and how His justice and mercy work.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1196 by PaulK, posted 06-26-2018 12:03 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1198 by PaulK, posted 06-26-2018 12:47 AM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14346
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 1198 of 1307 (835611)
06-26-2018 12:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1197 by Faith
06-26-2018 12:23 AM


Re: Justice
quote:

Calvinism is simply the truest interpretation of what the bible says. The sin nature is implied throughout the Bible and ought to be recognized even in our own personal experience it seems to me.

That really doesn’t address any of the points I was making.

quote:

As usual you present it in such a way as to deny personal responsibility. We always have a choice at our own level, we can't know anything about God's level except what the Bible tells us, and to let it deprive us of personal choice is a big mistake.

If we are - intentionally - afflicted with a condition that causes us to choose badly then we can reasonably claim diminished responsibility and hold that the person responsible for our affliction is to blame.

quote:

I feel reassured knowing that whatever happens to me has a just cause even if I don't understand it, and that I can talk to God about it and maybe begin to understand it. The idea that things just happen randomly is not at all reassuring, just makes us pawns of incomprehensible and unpredictable and unrectifiable forces.

Being the pawn of a monstrous evil hardly sounds better to me. But if that’s what you like go on believing it.

quote:

After this life our destiny is sealed, yes, but during this life we have lots of opportunities for changing in response to affliction, for reformation, for turning away from its cause, which means it does work as deterrence.

There you go denying predestination again. According to Calvinism our destiny was sealed before we were even born.

quote:

I think what you are missing is that our sins ARE infinite because they are sins against an infinite and holy God.

God, the ultimate special snowflake, clutching his pearls over the things he made us do. It’s not an attractive picture at all. If God chose to make us all sinners, there is no justice in his taking offence at our sins. Let alone infinite offence.

quote:

Our sins had the "power" to cause the destruction of the whole planet in the Flood of Noah and are building up to the final destruction of the planet.

According to the Bible, God is doing all that. Not our sins. Not that it would make much difference since God would still be fully responsible even if the latter were true - according to Calvinist theology.

quote:

God takes us very seriously and takes sin extremely seriously. The whole point of the Bible is to teach us about God and how His justice and mercy work.

Of course given Calvinist theology the logical conclusion is that our sins are just a pretext to create an illusion of justice. But if you think that the point of the Bible is to teach that God is a monster of injustice and cruelty I will leave you to that belief.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1197 by Faith, posted 06-26-2018 12:23 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1199 by Faith, posted 06-26-2018 2:13 AM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29569
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1199 of 1307 (835612)
06-26-2018 2:13 AM
Reply to: Message 1198 by PaulK
06-26-2018 12:47 AM


Re: Justice
You are making God into an image of human beings rather than the other way around.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1198 by PaulK, posted 06-26-2018 12:47 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1200 by PaulK, posted 06-26-2018 2:43 AM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14346
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1200 of 1307 (835613)
06-26-2018 2:43 AM
Reply to: Message 1199 by Faith
06-26-2018 2:13 AM


Re: Justice
I’m not making God into anything. I’m just pointing out the implications of Calvinist theology. If Calvinism makes God out to be a monster that’s none of my doing.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1199 by Faith, posted 06-26-2018 2:13 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1201 by Faith, posted 06-26-2018 2:57 AM PaulK has responded

    
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