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Author Topic:   Gay Marriage as an attack on Christianity
Faith
Member
Posts: 28898
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1201 of 1258 (835615)
06-26-2018 2:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1200 by PaulK
06-26-2018 2:43 AM


Re: Justice
I’m not making God into anything.

Of course you are. No Calvinist sees it that way. I understand that you think your logical abilities, not to mention integrity, honesty and so on, are superior to any Calvinist's of course, but it's at least possible that you are wrong.

I’m just pointing out the implications of Calvinist theology. If Calvinism makes God out to be a monster that’s none of my doing.

It's entirely your doing. Calvinism does no such thing.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1200 by PaulK, posted 06-26-2018 2:43 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1202 by PaulK, posted 06-26-2018 3:18 AM Faith has responded
 Message 1203 by Tangle, posted 06-26-2018 3:24 AM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14193
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1202 of 1258 (835618)
06-26-2018 3:18 AM
Reply to: Message 1201 by Faith
06-26-2018 2:57 AM


Re: Justice
quote:

Of course you are. No Calvinist sees it that way.

The implications are pretty clear. If I’m wrong you have to show it.

quote:

I understand that you think your logical abilities, not to mention integrity, honesty and so on, are superior to any Calvinist's of course, but it's at least possible that you are wrong.

I think that most Calvinists don’t think about it, and those that do are prey to cognitive dissonance. But if they have answers, bring them on. Let’s settle this with reason.

quote:

It's entirely your doing. Calvinism does no such thing.

I have made the case that it does.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1201 by Faith, posted 06-26-2018 2:57 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1205 by Faith, posted 06-26-2018 6:44 AM PaulK has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5872
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1203 of 1258 (835619)
06-26-2018 3:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1201 by Faith
06-26-2018 2:57 AM


Re: Justice
Faith writes:

Calvinism does no such thing.

Something can't be both predestined AND changeable. Pick one.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1201 by Faith, posted 06-26-2018 2:57 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1204 by Faith, posted 06-26-2018 6:41 AM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 28898
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1204 of 1258 (835621)
06-26-2018 6:41 AM
Reply to: Message 1203 by Tangle
06-26-2018 3:24 AM


Re: Justice
Something can't be both predestined AND changeable. Pick one.

What is predestined from God's point of view may be changeable from ours, a matter of choice from ours, because we are blind to God's will. What we choose will be His will but we won't know that until it is firmly established.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1203 by Tangle, posted 06-26-2018 3:24 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1208 by Tangle, posted 06-26-2018 7:45 AM Faith has responded
 Message 1212 by JonF, posted 06-26-2018 8:41 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 28898
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1205 of 1258 (835622)
06-26-2018 6:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1202 by PaulK
06-26-2018 3:18 AM


Re: Justice
The answer is simply in knowing that God is always righteous, good, just and trustworthy even when His judgments are so severe we can hardly bear the thought of them. We believe that because we believe the Bible that shows us that in so many ways. There's no way to prove any of it to you, you either believe the Bible's testimony to God's perfect justice, goodness and mercy or you don't.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1202 by PaulK, posted 06-26-2018 3:18 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1206 by PaulK, posted 06-26-2018 6:58 AM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14193
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1206 of 1258 (835623)
06-26-2018 6:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1205 by Faith
06-26-2018 6:44 AM


Re: Justice
quote:

The answer is simply in knowing that God is always righteous, good, just and trustworthy even when His judgments are so severe we can hardly bear the thought of them.

So basically the “answer” is doublethink. Insisting that God is “righteous, good, just and trustworthy” even though your other beliefs say otherwise.

quote:

There's no way to prove any of it to you, you either believe the Bible's testimony to God's perfect justice, goodness and mercy or you don't.

Of course I’m making no claim about that. I’m just pointing out the implications of Calvinist theology - as I told you. I’m not a Calvinist, and if I were still Christian it’s Calvinism I would throw out.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1205 by Faith, posted 06-26-2018 6:44 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1211 by Faith, posted 06-26-2018 8:37 AM PaulK has responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19525
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 1207 of 1258 (835624)
06-26-2018 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
03-12-2017 7:23 AM


Belief vs Reality
Gay Marriage Reality as an attack on (Fundamentalist) Christianity

or

Fundamentalist Christianity as an attack on Gay Marriage

either way I fixed it for you.

Gays exist. Always have, always will. There are many observed instances of gay animals: it is natural.

That's reality.

Gay Marriage is legal. That's a fact. That means that a majority of people are in favor of it, including many (non-fundamentalist) Christians.

(Fundamentalist) Christianity doesn't get to impose mere beliefs on people, especially when those beliefs are not founded on facts.

Fundamentalist Christianity wanting to impose those beliefs on other people is an attack on those people, some of which are Christians that don't hold such beliefs.

That's reality.

It is as much of "an attack on Christianity" as the age of the earth -- as shown by multiple avenues of evidence -- is WAY OLDER than 6,000 years {like over 4 billion years old}. There are many (non-fundamentalist) Christians that have no problems with the age of the earth.

You do not get to include all Christians in your argument unless you reflect the beliefs of all Christians.

When you say

... Are you unaware that we were a Christian society up until very recently, ...

You are using non-fundamentalist Christians and their beliefs, people that still overwhelmingly dominate the American social landscape. The US is no less Christian socially than in the days of the founders.

This

Now that the west is regressing to paganism we have increasingly pagan laws ...

is just you being absurd. There are no laws forcing or enforcing pagan beliefs on people that I am aware of. Can you cite any?

The US, by the Constitution, is a secular government, and what we have are secular laws, laws that show no preference for any religion. ( ... and those that do show a preference are in violation of the US Constitution)

quote:
U.S. Constitution
Article VI

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


underline for emphasis.

The US government has always been a secular government. Under the constitution no religion is given preference and all beliefs are respected, equally.

Again, gay marriage is legal. If you don't believe gay marriage should happen, don't have one. But if you refuse to bake a cake or provide flowers for a gay marriage, that is you using your religion to attack people that do not hold your beliefs. Not the other way around.

There have always been people that don't hold your beliefs, and their always will be.

That's reality.

Enjoy


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by our ability to understand
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Faith, posted 03-12-2017 7:23 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1210 by Faith, posted 06-26-2018 8:31 AM RAZD has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5872
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1208 of 1258 (835625)
06-26-2018 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1204 by Faith
06-26-2018 6:41 AM


Re: Justice
Faith writes:

What is predestined from God's point of view may be changeable from ours

If you're going to say things like that, why are we discussing anytthing? In your Alice in Wonderland world words have no meaning or any meaning you like.

And, incredibly, you are now saying that what god predestines, humans can change. Apart from the utter stupidity of the obvious contradiction, it also strikes me that it's heresy.

What we choose will be His will but we won't know that until it is firmly established.

So we have absolutely no idea what god's intent is and moreover we can't know. Yet you know you're saved and you've spent the last 15 years explaining his will.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1204 by Faith, posted 06-26-2018 6:41 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1209 by Faith, posted 06-26-2018 8:27 AM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 28898
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1209 of 1258 (835626)
06-26-2018 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1208 by Tangle
06-26-2018 7:45 AM


Re: Justice
No, that is not what I said. From our point of view we can change but that isn't going to change God's predestination. Just think a little, Tangle, it isn't THAT hard.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1208 by Tangle, posted 06-26-2018 7:45 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1216 by Tangle, posted 06-26-2018 8:50 AM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 28898
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1210 of 1258 (835627)
06-26-2018 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1207 by RAZD
06-26-2018 7:37 AM


Re: Belief vs Reality
And of course you missed the point. All you say may be true but what that means is that Christians will not obey the law because it contradicts God's Law. We will either find ways to avoid it or if we can't and are met by it head-on we will have to suffer the consequences. That's the Reality, RAZD. That isn't exactly freedom of religion. But I don't think society cares about freedom of religion any more. Oh maybe for Muslims and Satanists.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1207 by RAZD, posted 06-26-2018 7:37 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1213 by PaulK, posted 06-26-2018 8:42 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 1220 by RAZD, posted 06-26-2018 10:23 AM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 28898
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1211 of 1258 (835628)
06-26-2018 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1206 by PaulK
06-26-2018 6:58 AM


Re: Justice
God's justice that you call monstrous is in fact righteous and good and just though fromn our point of view it seems unnecessarily harsh. His ways are not our ways, He is not a human being and He sees everything from a much higher perspective. You judge Him from our human feelings because we are not in a position to see things from His point of view. But scripture tells us His judgments are righteous. You either believe it or you don't.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1206 by PaulK, posted 06-26-2018 6:58 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1214 by PaulK, posted 06-26-2018 8:48 AM Faith has responded

    
JonF
Member
Posts: 4152
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1212 of 1258 (835629)
06-26-2018 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 1204 by Faith
06-26-2018 6:41 AM


Re: Justice
What is predestined from God's point of view may be changeable from ours, a matter of choice from ours, because we are blind to God's will. What we choose will be His will but we won't know that until it is firmly established.

Translates to "everything is predestined whether we know it or not".


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1204 by Faith, posted 06-26-2018 6:41 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14193
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1213 of 1258 (835630)
06-26-2018 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1210 by Faith
06-26-2018 8:31 AM


Re: Belief vs Reality
quote:

Christians will not obey the law because it contradicts God's Law.

You keep saying that but you never produce a law that you’d actually be disobeying.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1210 by Faith, posted 06-26-2018 8:31 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14193
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1214 of 1258 (835631)
06-26-2018 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1211 by Faith
06-26-2018 8:37 AM


Re: Justice
quote:

God's justice that you call monstrous is in fact righteous and good and just though fromn our point of view it seems unnecessarily harsh

That’s hardly an accurate presentation of my points. Try this: Calvinism implicitly claims that God is monstrously unjust - and the harshness is far from the worst thing about it.

And until you actually address my reasoning my case stands.

quote:

You judge Him from our human feelings because we are not in a position to see things from His point of view. But scripture tells us His judgments are righteous

Then either scripture is incorrect or Calvinism is.

quote:

You either believe it or you don't.

You seem to be trying to do both.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1211 by Faith, posted 06-26-2018 8:37 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1215 by Faith, posted 06-26-2018 8:49 AM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 28898
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1215 of 1258 (835632)
06-26-2018 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1214 by PaulK
06-26-2018 8:48 AM


Re: Justice
Let your case stand, I'm fine with that. You are going to stick with it no matter what anyway.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1214 by PaulK, posted 06-26-2018 8:48 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1219 by PaulK, posted 06-26-2018 9:14 AM Faith has responded

    
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