Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 78 (8869 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 10-19-2018 4:00 AM
259 online now:
PaulK (1 member, 258 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: paradigm of types
Upcoming Birthdays: Astrophile
Post Volume:
Total: 840,415 Year: 15,238/29,783 Month: 1,182/1,502 Week: 180/492 Day: 0/23 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
8081
82
8384
...
91Next
Author Topic:   Gay Marriage as an attack on Christianity
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6180
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.0


(1)
Message 1216 of 1358 (835633)
06-26-2018 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1209 by Faith
06-26-2018 8:27 AM


Re: Justice
Faith writes:

No, that is not what I said.

This is what you said:

Faith writes:

What is predestined from God's point of view may be changeable from ours, a matter of choice from ours, because we are blind to God's will. What we choose will be His will but we won't know that until it is firmly established.

I'll say it again because you appear to be hard of reasoning. If god predestines each of our lives, we can't change anything. If he doesn't, we can. It's binary.

If we can only 'choose' what he has predestined, there is no choice.

Just think a little, Tangle, it isn't THAT hard.

I think my problem is in thinking that the garbage you write has any discernible, rational meaning. As for being hard, you bet it is, only Humpty Dumpty could fathom your thinking.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1209 by Faith, posted 06-26-2018 8:27 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1217 by Faith, posted 06-26-2018 8:51 AM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29837
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1217 of 1358 (835634)
06-26-2018 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1216 by Tangle
06-26-2018 8:50 AM


Re: Justice
From our point of view we are not restricted in our freedom of choice by God's predestination. Period.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1216 by Tangle, posted 06-26-2018 8:50 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1218 by Tangle, posted 06-26-2018 8:53 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6180
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.0


(1)
Message 1218 of 1358 (835635)
06-26-2018 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1217 by Faith
06-26-2018 8:51 AM


Re: Justice
Faith writes:

From our point of view we are not restricted in our freedom of choice by God's predestination. Period.

Alice laughed: "There's no use trying," she said; "one can't believe impossible things." "I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1217 by Faith, posted 06-26-2018 8:51 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14419
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1219 of 1358 (835636)
06-26-2018 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1215 by Faith
06-26-2018 8:49 AM


Re: Justice
quote:

Let your case stand, I'm fine with that. You are going to stick with it no matter what anyway.

If you could actually show my case to be wrong I wouldn't stick to it. But since you haven’t even attempted to answer it, it seems pretty clear that you can’t.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1215 by Faith, posted 06-26-2018 8:49 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1222 by Faith, posted 06-26-2018 12:08 PM PaulK has responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19567
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 1220 of 1358 (835637)
06-26-2018 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1210 by Faith
06-26-2018 8:31 AM


Re: Belief vs Reality
... ll you say may be true but what that means is that Christians will not obey the law because it contradicts God's Law. We will either find ways to avoid it or if we can't and are met by it head-on we will have to suffer the consequences. ...

What you mean is that it contradicts your beliefs. As noted before, not all Christians hold this belief, only fundamentalist Christians, and your continued use of the part for the whole is a logical fallacy.

Curiously, what you say is true for everyone -such as protesters and people of other faiths - that they have the right to disobey the law if it contradicts their beliefs. If you believe the law is wrong you have the right to protest and and petition the government to change it. That doesn't make you special, just someone at odds with the law. This is also part of amendment 1.

... That's the Reality, RAZD. That isn't exactly freedom of religion. But I don't think society cares about freedom of religion any more. Oh maybe for Muslims and Satanists.

Wrong.

The Reality is that if the law applies equally to Christians, Muslims and Satanists, then that is, by definition, freedom of religion. Freedom of religion does not apply just to Christianity, it applies to all beliefs - equally.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1210 by Faith, posted 06-26-2018 8:31 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1221 by Faith, posted 06-26-2018 12:02 PM RAZD has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29837
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1221 of 1358 (835638)
06-26-2018 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1220 by RAZD
06-26-2018 10:23 AM


Re: Belief vs Reality
Fine, it's a particular branch of Christianity that will be challenged if that makes such a big difference to you but everything I said about that is true. Unless the Supreme Court decides to protect Christian wedding-related businesses from being sued and prosecuted for refusing to serve gay weddings they will have to go out of business or pay fines and so on. As I said, some freedom of religion. You can skip all the pedantic stuff about freedom of religion applying across the board because it's this particular Christian branch that's going to suffer because we oppose gay marriage on biblical grounds and won't compromise. If there are other religions with a similar position that run wedding based businesses that could get challenged, then we aren't alone, but at the moment we seem to be alone and you really didn't say anything that applies to the reality of the situation.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1220 by RAZD, posted 06-26-2018 10:23 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1224 by RAZD, posted 06-26-2018 12:37 PM Faith has responded
 Message 1226 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-27-2018 12:11 AM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29837
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1222 of 1358 (835639)
06-26-2018 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1219 by PaulK
06-26-2018 9:14 AM


Re: Justice
Oh your case isn't wrong, based on your premises it's completely right and you should stand on it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1219 by PaulK, posted 06-26-2018 9:14 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1223 by PaulK, posted 06-26-2018 12:15 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14419
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1223 of 1358 (835640)
06-26-2018 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1222 by Faith
06-26-2018 12:08 PM


Re: Justice
You haven’t challenged any of the premises (which are mainly Calvinist theology anyway). I don’t think that there is anything else that is all controversial in there.

But if you want to challenge any of them, please go ahead. Just make sure that what you are challenging really is a premise - because you are very likely to get it wrong.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1222 by Faith, posted 06-26-2018 12:08 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19567
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 1224 of 1358 (835641)
06-26-2018 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1221 by Faith
06-26-2018 12:02 PM


Re: Belief vs Reality
... Unless the Supreme Court decides to protect Christian wedding-related businesses from being sued and prosecuted for refusing to serve gay weddings ...

Which would be a law that established a federal religion over other religions and beliefs. Last time I checked that is unconstitutional.

... As I said, some freedom of religion. ...

You
just
don't
get
it:

You have just as much freedom of religion as everybody else, regardless of belief. No more, no less. The fact that you feel entitled to more than other beliefs is your problem (check your privilege), because you aren't.

... because it's this particular Christian branch that's going to suffer because we oppose gay marriage on biblical grounds and won't compromise. ...

Based on some very small-minded interpretations in a fundamentalist sect, yes, and that makes it your problem, not anyone else's.

You created the problem by trying to impose your silly beliefs on other people (here gay people), and then you cry and moan that you are being persecuted and attacked for your beliefs when you are stopped. Wacko.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1221 by Faith, posted 06-26-2018 12:02 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1225 by Faith, posted 06-26-2018 7:28 PM RAZD has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29837
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1225 of 1358 (835645)
06-26-2018 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1224 by RAZD
06-26-2018 12:37 PM


Re: Belief vs Reality
You are the one who doesn't get it but there's no point in saying it again.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1224 by RAZD, posted 06-26-2018 12:37 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1228 by RAZD, posted 06-30-2018 10:12 AM Faith has responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5593
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 1226 of 1358 (835649)
06-27-2018 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1221 by Faith
06-26-2018 12:02 PM


Re: Belief vs Reality
Unless the Supreme Court decides to protect Christian wedding-related businesses from being sued and prosecuted for refusing to serve gay weddings they will have to go out of business or pay fines and so on. As I said, some freedom of religion. You can skip all the pedantic stuff about freedom of religion applying across the board because it's this particular Christian branch that's going to suffer because we oppose gay marriage on biblical grounds and won't compromise. If there are other religions with a similar position that run wedding based businesses that could get challenged, then we aren't alone, but at the moment we seem to be alone and you really didn't say anything that applies to the reality of the situation.

Assuming we are discussing the baker who recently was ruled in his favor by SCOTUS, I agree with their decision. I've offered just such a scenario in past discussions on EvC and always knew that one day a court case like this would come out. It was simply an inevitability, if you ask me.

I don't think it is right to force people with sincerely held religious convictions to marry a homosexual couple if it conflicts with their beliefs. But there are limitations to that -- namely, in this instance, that the baker was not declining all services to the couple on account that they were gay. His stipulation was that he would not make a wedding cake but offered similar services in place of that. Now, had he refused them service outright on account of their homosexuality, the ruling would have been much different.

I am hugely in favor of private businesses exercising their right to refuse service, BUT if you are serving the general public, you cannot outright discriminate against people based on race, gender, sexual orientation, and so on... and I also agree with that, that such protections are in place.

So with that, if you owned a store would you openly not serve gay people on account of their sexual orientation and just pay the fines? It's also more than fines, we're talking civil litigation. You could be sued for tens of thousands of dollars for civil rights violations.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1221 by Faith, posted 06-26-2018 12:02 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1227 by Faith, posted 06-27-2018 4:18 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29837
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1227 of 1358 (835652)
06-27-2018 4:18 AM
Reply to: Message 1226 by Hyroglyphx
06-27-2018 12:11 AM


Re: Belief vs Reality
Hyro, I guess you missed it but all the wedding business owners were clearly refusing service for gay marriage and nothing else; it never had anything to do with gays as such, who receive all the other services available. It is not about discriminating against persons, it is about gay marriage, period. and I keep saying that myself in these discussions.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1226 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-27-2018 12:11 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19567
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 1228 of 1358 (835753)
06-30-2018 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 1225 by Faith
06-26-2018 7:28 PM


Re: Belief vs Reality
Oh I get what you are saying, but you're just wrong.

Religious Freedom does not give you the right to make up restrictions for other people, it gives you the right to practice your religion at home, places of worship, etcetera. Bakers and florists that provide services to the general public need to abide by established laws regarding discrimination against minorities etc. Doing otherwise makes those laws pointless.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1225 by Faith, posted 06-26-2018 7:28 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1229 by Faith, posted 06-30-2018 11:57 AM RAZD has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29837
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1229 of 1358 (835754)
06-30-2018 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1228 by RAZD
06-30-2018 10:12 AM


Re: Belief vs Reality
No RAZD, my religion is a life commitment, it isn't to be restricted by the world to wherever they want it to be confined, it is to be lived every day everywhere. So again, Christians will no longer be able to run wedding businesses, and if we are put in the position of being required to endorse gay marriage in any other way we will have to take the punishment.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1228 by RAZD, posted 06-30-2018 10:12 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1230 by ringo, posted 06-30-2018 12:06 PM Faith has responded
 Message 1234 by RAZD, posted 07-01-2018 6:44 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15403
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1230 of 1358 (835756)
06-30-2018 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1229 by Faith
06-30-2018 11:57 AM


Re: Belief vs Reality
Faith writes:

... my religion is a life commitment....


But that isn't what the Constitution protects. You can live it every day every where until the cows come home but you can't dictate what is protected under "freedom of religion".

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1229 by Faith, posted 06-30-2018 11:57 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1231 by Faith, posted 06-30-2018 12:22 PM ringo has responded

  
RewPrev1
...
8081
82
8384
...
91Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2018