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LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1218
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 1291 of 1307 (838346)
08-19-2018 5:05 PM


Fundi "Christians" use VEGETARIAN verse ( Is. 66:3) to justify killing & eating pigs
Somehow this (and see chapter 65 and all of 66) is used to justify throwing away the rule against eating pork. (see Faith's post for that source and quote)

quote:

3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Isaiah-Chapter-66/


The Lion and Lamb not eating flesh is in chapter 65.

There was a general attack on certain Israelite practices (how common, I have no idea, but pork bones are almost non existent in Israelite and Canaanite sites during the period of Isaiah).

This is proof that ANYTHING can be twisted into saying the exact opposite.

(There was a school of Pre Christian Nazarenes that did not eat meat and felt that Moses never legislated flesh sacrifices, like Jeremiah 7:22 seems to be saying)


Replies to this message:
 Message 1294 by Faith, posted 08-19-2018 5:15 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1218
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 1292 of 1307 (838347)
08-19-2018 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1290 by Faith
08-19-2018 5:05 PM


Is it a firsthand source or (at best) a second hand comic book "source"?
quote:

You could have said all that in a few short sentences. And I refuse to consider that my sources are liars. I'm sorry I answered you at all.

You have no primary source.

Just lies.

Anybody can quote lies.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1290 by Faith, posted 08-19-2018 5:05 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1218
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 1293 of 1307 (838348)
08-19-2018 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1289 by Phat
08-19-2018 4:56 PM


Jews say food prohibitions IN sacrifices OUT. 2 different issues. (despite the lies)
quote:

But you provide no reason why these ancient practices are in any way relevant for us today.


I don't know if there was a Moses type who ever legislated sacrifice.

Jeremiah seemed to question such a thing.

See Jeremiah 7:22.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1289 by Phat, posted 08-19-2018 4:56 PM Phat has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29527
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1294 of 1307 (838349)
08-19-2018 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1291 by LamarkNewAge
08-19-2018 5:05 PM


Re: Fundi "Christians" use VEGETARIAN verse ( Is. 66:3) to justify killing & eating pigs
Do you have ANY idea what you are talking about? This kind of nonsense is why I don't usually venture to answer anything you post. You just don't know what you are talking about. Do you have any clue at all to the context of that passage of Isaiah 66? I'm sure you don't. You are always getting this sort of thing so extremely weirdly wrong it would take years to begin to set you straight. You seem to have amassed a lot of knowledge that you have NO idea how to use.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1291 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-19-2018 5:05 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1295 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-19-2018 5:26 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1218
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 1295 of 1307 (838350)
08-19-2018 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1294 by Faith
08-19-2018 5:15 PM


Re: Fundi "Christians" use VEGETARIAN verse ( Is. 66:3) to justify killing & eating pigs
So where is your primary source saying Canaanites sacrificed pigs?

Just a bunch of claims. By people who lie.

Where are pigs mentioned in Ugaritic Offering lists?

There is NOTHING even in the Bible to come close to backing up this claim.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1294 by Faith, posted 08-19-2018 5:15 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1218
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 1296 of 1307 (838353)
08-19-2018 6:22 PM


For the record: Canaanites sacrificial system was largely adopted by Israelites.
It is a bold faced lie to attempt to describe ANYTHING (relative to the animals being sacrificed) as being anything - in any way - to radically distance Israelites from Canaanites. Same with food.

This Fundi source below says the Israelites had sacrifice before the Canaanites, and goes to great lengths to describe the differences between the two.

https://www.biblegateway.com/...clopedia-of-the-bible/Ugarit

Notice no mention of pigs!

(No evidence INFACT there is only evidence that Canaanites did NOT sacrifice pigs)

quote:

The Ugaritic texts give us firsthand information on the Baal cult, and the ideas and ideals of the people of Canaan at the time of the Biblical patriarchs.

Sacrifices mentioned in the Ugaritic texts bear names similar to those of the Biblical sacrificial system. The Ugaritic texts speak of burnt offerings, whole burnt offerings, trespass offerings, wave offerings, peace offerings, firstfruits offerings, new moon offerings and others. As in the Biblical sacrifices, it was necessary that animals offered be without blemish.

Although names are similar, the religious meaning was quite different. Offerings were made to Baal and a host of other gods at Ugarit, while the Israelite religion prescribed the worship of Yahweh alone. While Biblical offerings were regularized in the Mosaic law, particularly the Book of Leviticus, Biblical sacrifices go back to the earliest times.


Faith wants my posts reduced to a few sentences so she can repeat lies. So much for her claims that she and Fundi Christians are against sins.


Replies to this message:
 Message 1297 by NoNukes, posted 08-19-2018 9:36 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 1297 of 1307 (838355)
08-19-2018 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1296 by LamarkNewAge
08-19-2018 6:22 PM


Re: For the record: Canaanites sacrificial system was largely adopted by Israelites.
Faith wants my posts reduced to a few sentences so she can repeat lies. So much for her claims that she and Fundi Christians are against sins.

Your posts are way too long and rambling. I am not sure the extra sentences are helping you to make your case.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1296 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-19-2018 6:22 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1298 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-19-2018 9:51 PM NoNukes has responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1218
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 1298 of 1307 (838356)
08-19-2018 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1297 by NoNukes
08-19-2018 9:36 PM


Re: For the record: Canaanites sacrificial system was largely adopted by Israelites.
At least I have quality sources and reference to the actual texts that matter.

Faith has nothing but dishonest assertions. (Really, I know of nothing in the Jewish rabbinical commentary that backs up this fundi claim that she and the trillions of fundis regurgitate)

Roland de Vaux was a great conservative Christian scholar, and I showed he very clearly dismissed the idea of Isaiah 66:3 as representing Canaanite practice.

I can't even have an honest discussion with Faith. She makes claims, and can't back them up. The only slight truth to her claim is that Israeli and Canaanite peoples were so closely related, that ANY ISRAELITE that ate pork can be said to have been PERFORMING a "heathen" practice (geographically, I suppose this could perhaps be broadly called "Canaanite" - to simply describe an apostate Israelite - though Canaanites themselves did not eat pork.)

I have looked at the archaeological record of pre-Israelite cult places and they are lacking pig bones.

Look at the book search for:

Ethno Genesis by Avraham Faust pig bones Canaanites

Now, he was attempting to make the case for less pig bones in Israelite sites, but he admitted that 2 important Canaanite cult sites lacked pig bones (in the latest Canaanite periods):

Tell ed-Duweir

Shiloh

The chapter can be read on google books.

I can find more examples perhaps. I am trying to get more information. Shiloh seems to be a cult site (for certain) and it lacked pig bones after the 18th century BCE, but the bones were 3.5% pigs before then. If I understand the archaeological terminology correctly (I admit I had to look it up to figure the terms year date meanings).

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1297 by NoNukes, posted 08-19-2018 9:36 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1299 by NoNukes, posted 08-19-2018 10:09 PM LamarkNewAge has responded
 Message 1300 by Faith, posted 08-20-2018 12:27 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 1299 of 1307 (838357)
08-19-2018 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1298 by LamarkNewAge
08-19-2018 9:51 PM


Re: For the record: Canaanites sacrificial system was largely adopted by Israelites.
NoNukes writes:

Your posts are way too long and rambling. I am not sure the extra sentences are helping you to make your case.

LNA writes:


...
3/4 of a page of rambling stuff about 1 line of which is a response snipped...

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1298 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-19-2018 9:51 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1301 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-20-2018 12:30 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29527
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1300 of 1307 (838358)
08-20-2018 12:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1298 by LamarkNewAge
08-19-2018 9:51 PM


Re: For the record: Canaanites sacrificial system was largely adopted by Israelites.
Roland de Vaux was a great conservative Christian scholar, and I showed he very clearly dismissed the idea of Isaiah 66:3 as representing Canaanite practice.

I see nothing in Isaiah 66:3 about Canaanites. What are you talking about?

...Canaanites themselves did not eat pork.)

take a look at this paper. Scroll down to "Pigs at Sites in Canaan" where the first line is: "In Canaan at Early Bronze Arad, pig bones were found at all strata of the Early Bronze..."

I quote that because it contradicts what you said about Canaanites not eating pork. But such archaeological evidence is open to error since they usually haven't excavated a whole site, which is mentioned in the article as a problem, and the presence of bones has to be subject to wrong interpretations anyway, so I don't want to make anything of it beyond that. And I really don't care about any of this stuff, it's way too iffy.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1298 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-19-2018 9:51 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1302 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-20-2018 12:39 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 1303 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-20-2018 12:58 AM Faith has responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1218
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 1301 of 1307 (838359)
08-20-2018 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1299 by NoNukes
08-19-2018 10:09 PM


So how would you get Faith to back up her claims?
(She has nothing in the Bible to back her claims, no Canaanite texts, no classical Phoenician texts SO HOW ABOUT ARCHAEOLOGY?)

I was just looking at the important cultic site of Shiloh and was attempting to look at pig bones.

This five day old article sees this as almost something of another Temple Mount in terms of importance, the difference is it can be (and is) excavated.

https://news.ag.org/...S-Joins-ABR-in-Historic-Dig-at-Shiloh

I found it because there is one (and only one) source that claims that 6% of pre-Israelite animal bones found in Shiloh were pig bones, while all other sources place it at 0% to 0.17%.

Page 217, Beyond the Texts: An Archaeological Portrait of Ancient Israel and Judah
By William G. Dever, has a chart that places Pre Israelite Shiloh pig bones at 6% (then a chart showing the Israelite Shiloh suddenly turned to 0% pig bones) , but this 5 day old article says they were no higher than 4%.

Everyone else has Shiloh at about 0% for like 500 years before this sacrificial center transitioned from Canaanite to Israelite.

Here:

quote:

Israel's Ethnogenesis: Settlement, Interaction, Expansion and Resistance
By Avraham Faust

p.35

the intermediate Bronze Age, pigs constituted some 15.2% of the faunal assemblage of 'Emeq Refaim in the highlands (Horwitz 1989: 46). During the Middle Bronze Age they formed 6.3% of the assemblage at coastal Tel Michal (Hellwing and Feig 1989: 246), 6.2-9.0% at Tel Aphek in the Sharon Plain (Hellwing 2000: 294, table 15.4),8% at 'Emeq Refaim in the highlands (Horwitz 1989: 46), 3.1% and 0.1% at Lachish in the Shephelah (excavation seasons I-VI and XI, respectively; Hellwing et al. 1993: 346, Table 15.44),31 %--45% at Tell el-Hayyat in the northern valleys (Falconer 1995), and 3.5% at Middle Bronze 11 Shiloh in the highlands (Hellwing et al. 1993: 311,313,314; no such bones were found in the Middle Bronze III level there). Pigs were seemingly found in the Late Bronze Age strata ofTel Dan in the northern valleys (Ilan 1999: 55), and were abundant at rei Miqne\Ekron in the Shephelah (8%; Hesse 1986: 23). They were rare, however, in contemporaneous levels at Shiloh (0.17%; Hellwing et al. 1993: 311), Tel Michal (0.3%; Hellwing and Feig 1989: 246) and Tel Lachish (0.2%; Hellwing et al. 1993: 347, Table 15.47).


And Here:

quote:

JBL122/3 (2003) 401-425
ISRAELITE ETHNICITY IN IRON I:
ARCHAEOLOGY PRESERVES
WHAT IS REMEMBERED AND
WHAT IS FORGOTTEN
IN ISRAELS HISTORY
....

p.409

Zooarchaeologists seemingly rescued the early Israelites from obscurity.
The apparent abstinence from pork in fulfillment of the biblical injunction (Lev
11:7-8; Deut 14:8) was embraced as the elusive marker of Israelite ethnicity.28
Brian Hesse and Paula Wapnish tabulated percentages of pig bones among faunal
collections from Israel, Syria, Iraq, eastern Anatolia, and Egypt, spanning
the ninth to the first millennium.29
Relevant to this discussion are their findings
from second- and first-millennium Cisjordan. Their efforts are hamstrung by
the small number of faunal assemblages analyzed, samples of widely varying
size (from 47 to 3,950 bones), and the variability of intrasite distribution
depending on context. Isolating the results of southern Levantine sites, five
Middle Bronze Age sites demonstrated "intense exploitation" of pig, from 8 to
34 percent of identified animal bones in domestic debris. Late Bronze Age sites
yielded "scant" Late Bronze Age evidence, with the sole highland site of Shiloh
yielding a mere 0.17 percent (one bone). Pig was rare but present in Iron I
highland sites: 0.7 percent at Shiloh, one bone each at Ai and Khirbet Raddana,
and "some" from the City of David (none from the Ophel).

http://blogs.bu.edu/...les/2011/09/Bloch-Smith-ethnicity.pdf


Faith might not care, and perhaps you don't either.

But a claim was made and it would be nice if she was forced to confront the total lack of evidence.

(She won't)

EDIT SHE DID! I need to see what she has.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1299 by NoNukes, posted 08-19-2018 10:09 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1218
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 1302 of 1307 (838360)
08-20-2018 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1300 by Faith
08-20-2018 12:27 AM


Canaanites sacrificial system was largely adopted by Israelites.
I see that Hitites would not sacrifice pigs or dogs.

Egyptians would not.

Canaanite Shiloh didn't seem to from the Middle Bronze Age III on (whatever date that is, I assume it is Canaanite)

During the entire Iron Age, Canaanite Dor had no pig bones.

It depends on the site though.

I will look at this more closely in the coming days.

Thanks for taking a shot at the evidence Faith.

(Shiloh in the Canaanite period is described as having pig bones at a 6% rate "Late Bronze Age" by the William Dever 2018 book, but that is contradicted by everything else that places it at 0.17%)

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1300 by Faith, posted 08-20-2018 12:27 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1218
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 1303 of 1307 (838361)
08-20-2018 12:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1300 by Faith
08-20-2018 12:27 AM


Re: For the record: Canaanites sacrificial system was largely adopted by Israelites.
quote:

I quote that because it contradicts what you said about Canaanites not eating pork. But such archaeological evidence is open to error since they usually haven't excavated a whole site, which is mentioned in the article as a problem, and the presence of bones has to be subject to wrong interpretations anyway, so I don't want to make anything of it beyond that. And I really don't care about any of this stuff, it's way too iffy.


There is a difference between foods that are o.k. to eat and then the much more limited foods fit for sacrifice. Thousands of bones have been found at the Israelite cult site of Mt Ebal.

300,000 to be exact.

The Israelite period have animals not fit for sacrifice (but fit for eating) like roe deer.

See:

History, Archaeology and The Bible Forty Years After "Historicity": Changing ...
edited by Ingrid Hjelm, Thomas L. Thompson

pp. 120-21

quote:

MT. Ebal, which Zertal claimed was Joshua's altar, lying just north of Mt. Gerizim, yielded the most varied and highest percentage of non-prescribed animal bones of deer, polecat, tortise, lizard, and mole rat. ...it seems that biblical tradition and the lack of pig bones at the site has determined its classification


This was describing the early Israelite period.

But it is consistent with sacrifice of killing any firstborn animal that opens the matrix in Exodus, I suppose.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1300 by Faith, posted 08-20-2018 12:27 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1304 by Faith, posted 08-20-2018 2:07 AM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29527
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1304 of 1307 (838362)
08-20-2018 2:07 AM
Reply to: Message 1303 by LamarkNewAge
08-20-2018 12:58 AM


Re: For the record: Canaanites sacrificial system was largely adopted by Israelites.
You really don't give enough explanation for a person to know what you are trying to say. I don't know where Mt. Ebal is, or Mt. Gerizim without looking on a map, and I don't know what the significance of those locations is in what you are trying to say, and I don't really trust archaeological dates, and I just have no idea what all those bones actually signify, and I'm not sure the archaeologists do either. As the Bible says the Israelites failed to drive out all the peoples God commanded them to, so how could one know, even if the dates are right, even if they identify the "Israelite period" how could anyone know how the bones got there or who was responsible for it? Let alone what it means. If the clues are there you haven't made use of them. The Israelites in the period of the Judges after the conquest of Canaan were always disobeying God too. If you are trying to make a case you have to take all of this into account.

You also say there is a difference between foods for eating and foods for sacrifice, but aren't making a case based on that for anything in particular that I can see. The priests were supposed to eat the sacrifice according to the scripture. But again it's hard to know what your evidence means. Does it pertain to Israelites at all, does it show them being disobedient or obedient to the scripture etc etc etc.

And this is way off topic for this thread, and again I am not into any of this stuft at all.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1303 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-20-2018 12:58 AM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1305 by Aussie, posted 08-23-2018 12:51 PM Faith has responded

    
Aussie
Member
Posts: 183
From: Sanford, FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


(1)
Message 1305 of 1307 (838536)
08-23-2018 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1304 by Faith
08-20-2018 2:07 AM


Re: For the record: Canaanites sacrificial system was largely adopted by Israelites.
Faith writes:


You really don't give enough explanation...
I don't know where...
I don't know what...
And I don't really trust...
And I just have no idea...
How could one know...?
How could anyone know...?
It's hard to know...
I am not into any of this stuff at all...

I get that you don't know, Faith. That much is abundantly clear. We all have areas we don't know much about, it's normal.
What is not clear to me is why you are wasting time posting so many strongly worded opinions about an area you admittedly don't know anything about, and "are not really into" in the first place.


"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1304 by Faith, posted 08-20-2018 2:07 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1306 by Faith, posted 08-23-2018 1:11 PM Aussie has not yet responded

    
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