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Author Topic:   What Do Europeans Think About Muslim Immigration?
bluegenes
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Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 1 of 52 (802937)
03-22-2017 8:27 AM


What Do Europeans Think About Muslim Immigration? According to research done last year by the Chatham House, most are not very keen on it, to put it mildly. In fact, most want a complete ban.

Chatham House asked 10,000 people (1000 from each of 10 EU countries) what they thought of the proposition:

quote:
All further migration from mainly Muslim countries should be stopped.

Overall, across all 10 of the European countries an average of 55% agreed that all further migration from mainly Muslim countries should be stopped, 25% neither agreed nor disagreed and 20% disagreed.

Considering the presence of the word "all" in the proposition, and the absence of the word "temporarily", the results are quite striking.

The U.K. is more open to Muslim immigration than average, with only Spain having a lower percentage in favour of a ban. (U.K. 47% "yes to the ban", 23% "no", and 30% undecided; Spain 41% "yes" 32% "no", 26% undecided).

It's worth reading the article. Both the differences between countries and the demographic breakdown are interesting.

https://www.chathamhouse.org/...ink-about-muslim-immigration

It's hard to see how any group could move from one area to another against such resistance to the idea without it being an unpleasant experience for the migrants.

One interesting thing is that someone who is in favour of heavy restrictions on Muslim migration, but does not want it to be complete, should be in the 20% who disagree. Those in the "neither agree or disagree" category could be regarded as against Muslim immigration on any significant scale, because it's easy to disagree with the "all" in the proposition.

So, what can European politicians do but heavily restrict or ban Muslim immigration?


Replies to this message:
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jar
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Posts: 29012
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 2 of 52 (802938)
03-22-2017 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by bluegenes
03-22-2017 8:27 AM


bluegenes writes:

So, what can European politicians do but heavily restrict or ban Muslim immigration?

That highlights one of the differences between the US and Europe. In the US politicians cannot legally ban Muslim immigrants. Are there European Nations where a similar Constitutional barrier exists?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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bluegenes
Member
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 3 of 52 (802939)
03-22-2017 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by jar
03-22-2017 8:33 AM


jar writes:

bluegenes writes:

So, what can European politicians do but heavily restrict or ban Muslim immigration?

That highlights one of the differences between the US and Europe. In the US politicians cannot legally ban Muslim immigrants. Are there European Nations where a similar Constitutional barrier exists?

I'm not sure. There's legislation that applies to citizens and is supposed to protect them against "religious discrimination" in employment and perhaps other areas, but that's nothing to do with who arrives from outside.

Also, in real politics, laws can always be changed, and often are when there is public opposition to them.


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jar
Member
Posts: 29012
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 4 of 52 (802941)
03-22-2017 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by bluegenes
03-22-2017 9:25 AM


bluegenes writes:

Also, in real politics, laws can always be changed, and often are when there is public opposition to them.

That's why I asked about Constitutional prohibitions. But then I also do not know what other nations have a Constitution like the US or what procedures are needed for modification. For example I understand that within the EU it is the EU Constitution that controls issues of border access. Is religion a protected item under that Constitution?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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frako
Member
Posts: 2695
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


(1)
Message 5 of 52 (802942)
03-22-2017 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by bluegenes
03-22-2017 8:27 AM


Thing is most of those people who disagree with muslim immigration believe that hordes of muslim migrants total count upwards of 10 million are raping and pillaging all over europe. Because of fake news.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


This message is a reply to:
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New Cat's Eye
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Posts: 11440
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 6 of 52 (802947)
03-22-2017 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by frako
03-22-2017 10:07 AM


Thing is most of those people who disagree with muslim immigration believe that hordes of muslim migrants total count upwards of 10 million are raping and pillaging all over europe. Because of fake news.

From wiki:

quote:
According to the Pew Research Center, the Muslim population in Europe (excluding Turkey) was about 30 million in 1990, 44 million in 2010 and is expected to increase to 58 million by 2030; the Muslim share of the population increased from 4.1% in 1990 to 6% in 2010 and will continue to increase over the next 40 years, reaching 10% in 2050.

That is 10's of millions of muslim migrants coming into europe. I doubt they're raping and pillaging, but it's not like there isn't a horde of them coming in.


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frako
Member
Posts: 2695
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 7 of 52 (802950)
03-22-2017 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by New Cat's Eye
03-22-2017 11:04 AM


douring the immigration crysis 800 000 where granted asylum or stay in europe that year some 200 000 where denied, normaly 150 000 come per year. As for the population increase well europeans have 1.9 children on average, immigrants at least double that but that should go down in a generation or two. And i would seriously distrust wiki on this subject.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


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frako
Member
Posts: 2695
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


(2)
Message 8 of 52 (802951)
03-22-2017 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by New Cat's Eye
03-22-2017 11:04 AM


You wont believe the fuss my people are making about 54 migrants yea that's right we got a whole 54 Muslim migrants, except most think we got at least 54 000. As for Muslims being evil well i have a Macedonian Muslim family renting in one of my apartments, never had any problems they always pay their bills on time i even get 5 eur extra because he promised my mother he would always add a bit for coffe. A few years ago they asked me to write an anex to the rent agreement, his sons girlfriend was protestant and when her christian protestant family found out she was dating a Muslim they disowned her and kicked her out, and they took her in.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-22-2017 11:04 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11440
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(3)
Message 9 of 52 (802953)
03-22-2017 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by frako
03-22-2017 11:38 AM


I live near St. Louis, Missouri, where we had a huge influx of Bosnian immigrants when all that shit went down in the 90s. We've got the largest population of Bosnians outside of Europe, and most of them are muslims. They turned Bevo Mill (a neighborhood) around and made it a lot better. Plus, selfish-me got some new cuisine to try out of the deal

St Louis, in general, has definitely benefited from muslim immigration, in particular.


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frako
Member
Posts: 2695
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 10 of 52 (802954)
03-22-2017 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by New Cat's Eye
03-22-2017 11:53 AM


Yea we are full of Bosnian's too not as thrilled about them as you though still way better then Croatians.

In essence Bosnian's are Slovenias mexicans

Slovenija was part of Ex Jugoslavija most ex members are not perticulary fond of each other. The only thing we have in common we all dont like Croatians Personally i think it was a miracle that Tito could hold 6 nations and 4 religions together.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-22-2017 11:53 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

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New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11440
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 11 of 52 (802956)
03-22-2017 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by frako
03-22-2017 12:07 PM


Yea we are full of Bosnian's too not as thrilled about them as you though

I don't think they get along with the black folks very well. Other than that they seem pretty welcomed.

still way better then Croatians.

My uncle is Serbian

In essence Bosnian's are Slovenias mexicans

Uh, no comment. I grew up around a Latino neighborhood and have a Mexican surname

Slovenija was part of Ex Jugoslavija most ex members are not perticulary fond of each other. The only thing we have in common we all dont like Croatians Personally i think it was a miracle that Tito could hold 6 nations and 4 religions together.

I don't know anything about that, nor who Tito is.


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Diomedes
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Posts: 628
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 6.4


Message 12 of 52 (802960)
03-22-2017 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by New Cat's Eye
03-22-2017 11:53 AM


I live near St. Louis, Missouri, where we had a huge influx of Bosnian immigrants when all that shit went down in the 90s. We've got the largest population of Bosnians outside of Europe, and most of them are muslims. They turned Bevo Mill (a neighborhood) around and made it a lot better. Plus, selfish-me got some new cuisine to try out of the deal

In my area of Central Florida, we have had a large influx of Muslims as well. Many Muslim families moved into my neighborhood. Seem to be acclimating nicely.

I think the big issue is the portrayal of Muslims by the media. The vast majority who emigrate here legally usually do so via work visas. Most are well educated and family oriented. Are there bad apples? Sure. Does Islamic extremism exist? Of course. But painting a broad brush and demonizing a whole slew of people for their religious beliefs is what occurred in The Dark Ages.

Oh, and we got a new Turkish restaurant in my area.


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New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11440
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 13 of 52 (802962)
03-22-2017 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Diomedes
03-22-2017 1:00 PM


In my area of Central Florida, we have had a large influx of Muslims as well. Many Muslim families moved into my neighborhood. Seem to be acclimating nicely.

Bevo Mill used to be a shithole but now its pretty good since the Bosnians moved in.

I think the big issue is the portrayal of Muslims by the media.

Well its also, just, different...

quote:
It was no different when thousands of Bosnian refugees fleeing civil war in the former Yugoslavia were settled in St Louis in the 1990s. The city and its previous waves of immigrants were fearful and even resentful of the newcomers, who were almost all Muslims. When some built smokehouses in their backyards and spit-roasted a whole lamb, the International Institute received phone calls from locals telling them that the Bosnians were barbecuing the local dogs. source

.

The vast majority who emigrate here legally usually do so via work visas. Most are well educated and family oriented.

Yup, and care enough about their neighborhood to not vandalize it but instead improve it and make it a better place to live.

Are there bad apples? Sure. Does Islamic extremism exist? Of course.

From that same article:

quote:
Earlier this year six Bosnian immigrants were charged with sending money and supplies to terrorists in Iraq and Syria. Three of them lived in St Louis County.

Oh, and we got a new Turkish restaurant in my area.

I had a lamb shank at an Afghani restaurant and it was amazing


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caffeine
Member
Posts: 1281
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 14 of 52 (802981)
03-22-2017 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by jar
03-22-2017 9:47 AM


That's why I asked about Constitutional prohibitions. But then I also do not know what other nations have a Constitution like the US or what procedures are needed for modification. For example I understand that within the EU it is the EU Constitution that controls issues of border access. Is religion a protected item under that Constitution?

Pretty much every Constitution guarantees freedom of religion in the modern world (in Europe at least. I can't pretend to know much about law elsewhere). There isn't an EU Constitution with a big C; but all EU member-sates are required to incorporate the European Convention on Human Rights into their law; which guarantees religious freedom.

Whether a guarantee of religious freedom necessarilt prohibits a ban on further immigration from Muslim nations is a different matter, however. The ECHR, for example, provides that:

quote:
The enjoyment of the rights and freedoms set forth in this Convention shall be secured without discrimination on any ground such as sex, race, colour, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, association with a national minority, property, birth or other status.

but immigrating into Europe is not a right or freedom secured in the Convention, so does that matter?

The Swedish constitution has two categories of fundamental rights - inalienable and those which can be restricted in certain circumstances (so freedom of speech doesn't allow you to shout 'fire' in a crowded theatre, to use the hackneyed example). It's expressly stipulated, however, that no limitation can be "solely on grounds of a political, religious, cultural or other such opinion". But again, immigration into Europe is not a fundamental right.

It's clear to me that European citizens and residents cannot be discriminated against on the basis of religion; their freedom of movement within Europe cannot be curtailed on this basis and they cannot be deported on this basis. I cannot, however, see a clear consititutional obstacle* to prohibiting immigration from anywhere on whatever whim takes your fancy. I don't see that in the US constitution either though, so lawyers may differ.

*though moral and practical I can easily see

I do know that people have tried to use the right to respect for family life (which is guaranteed by the ECHR) to allow family members to join them, but I don't know the case law and of course this is only relevant to a small subset.

ABE: The Swedish constitution does prohibit any "act of law or other provision (which) may imply the unfavourable treatment of anyone because they belong to a minority group by reason of ethnic origin, colour, or other similar circumstances or on account of their sexual orientation."

Interesting that religion is not mentioned specifically here, but I guess you could consider it covered under 'other similar circumstances'. And if you're wondering why 'sexual orientation' is mentioned after 'other'; it was added by consitutional amendment rather ungrammatically.

Elsewhere in the fundamental law, however, it's stated that:

quote:
The public institutions shall combat discrimination of per-
sons on grounds of gender, colour, national or ethnic origin, linguistic or
religious affiliation, functional disability, sexual orientation, age or other
circumstance affecting the individual.

so I'm pretty sure Sweden cannot impose a Muslim ban consitutionally. That's one down.

I'm fairly sure the Dutch constitution prohibits the government from doing anything to discriminate on the basis of religion; but no Dutch court is allowed to strike down a law as unconsitutional, so that's of little use.

Edited by caffeine, : No reason given.


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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7407
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 15 of 52 (802982)
03-22-2017 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by bluegenes
03-22-2017 8:27 AM


So, what can European politicians do but heavily restrict or ban Muslim immigration?

There is a distinction between immigration and Asylum that is often misunderstood so questions like the survey question may be revealing information different than the intention.

My understanding is there are heavy restrictions on immigration in general. But when Asylum seekers corpses started washing up on European beaches, there was a cry to help those fleeing the madness unleashed in Iraq and Syria so many politicians complied and pledged to accept larger numbers of Asylum seekers.

There are laws against discriminating immigrant or Asylum applications on the basis of sex, race, religion etc. So European Politicians can't stop or heavily mitigate immigration or Asylum on this basis even if they wanted to. It would require overturning or rewriting a variety of Treaties, Directives and Conventions. This is possible, but likely to take an extended amount of time, at which point the zeitgeist might have shifted another way and the politicians that are around by that point may decide they don't want to do it any more.

However, discrimination based on nationality is, I believe, permissable - and this can be used as a proxy for race and religion leading to indirect methods of limiting migration acceptance (not sure if discrimination of nationality is permissible in Asylum requests, I think it isn't but I'm not sure).


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