Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 108 (8739 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 04-30-2017 8:54 AM
391 online now:
Chiroptera, jar, Percy (Admin), RAZD (4 members, 387 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Jayhawker Soule
Post Volume:
Total: 805,790 Year: 10,396/21,208 Month: 3,483/2,674 Week: 26/873 Day: 26/76 Hour: 1/3

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1
2
34Next
Author Topic:   What Do Europeans Think About Muslim Immigration?
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7407
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 16 of 50 (802984)
03-22-2017 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by caffeine
03-22-2017 2:47 PM


but immigrating into Europe is not a right or freedom secured in the Convention, so does that matter?

I believe the main thrust is set out in the Amsterdam Treaty and the Maastricht Treaty. There is also the Geneva Convention and the ECHR which serve as frameworks of understanding that inform others. Maybe also the Racial Equality Directive and so on and so forth. European affairs are never simple


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by caffeine, posted 03-22-2017 2:47 PM caffeine has not yet responded

    
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1252
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 4.2


(2)
Message 17 of 50 (802988)
03-22-2017 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by New Cat's Eye
03-22-2017 11:04 AM


According to the Pew Research Center, the Muslim population in Europe (excluding Turkey) was about 30 million in 1990, 44 million in 2010 and is expected to increase to 58 million by 2030; the Muslim share of the population increased from 4.1% in 1990 to 6% in 2010 and will continue to increase over the next 40 years, reaching 10% in 2050.

That is 10's of millions of muslim migrants coming into europe. I doubt they're raping and pillaging, but it's not like there isn't a horde of them coming in.

That's not tens of millions of migrants; and a lot of that number are not actually in Europe. The numbers quoted from Pew above includes all of Russia as part of Europe (methodology here) and so that number includes millions of Muslims in Asian Russia.

But sticking with the smaller number that are in Europe, most of those are not migrants - they were born here. Not every Muslim is a recent immigrant. Aside from those who are third or fourth generation; there have been large Muslim populations in Europe for centuries. The millions of Muslim Albanians and Bosniaks can hardly be be considered immigrants. As for the increase projected, that's mostly driven by differential feritility of people in Europe, not by new immigrants.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-22-2017 11:04 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
frako
Member
Posts: 2687
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 18 of 50 (803021)
03-22-2017 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by New Cat's Eye
03-22-2017 12:35 PM


My uncle is Serbian

Serbians and Slovenians get along pretty well to bad Croatia is between our 2 countries.

Uh, no comment. I grew up around a Latino neighborhood and have a Mexican surname

Well in essence its the same they refuse to talk Slovenian and take all the shitty jobs nobody wants

I don't know anything about that, nor who Tito is.

Well 27 years ago there was a country called Jugoslavija, comprised of bosnians, croats, serbs, montenegrans, macedonians, Slovenians .... Chrisitans, protestants, muslims... Tito was the president of this country he had a life mandate that everybody voted for in congress with one exception wanting to make it longer. The guy basically held the country together though he was definitively not a saint. once he died things turned for the worse. we the slovenians left first but we had a plan so the war only lasted 10 days hardly anyone got killed most of the jugoslav army was captured and sent home. The shit hit the fan when others wanted to leave and the serbian president wanted to rule them all, things went from bad to worse some genocides happened and the end of the ware left the former members pissed at each other.

This is also one of the reasons my southern neighbours have no love for muslims, just last week some croatians beat up a muslim migrant boy nearly to death.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-22-2017 12:35 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

    
bluegenes
Member
Posts: 2999
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 19 of 50 (803037)
03-23-2017 8:07 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by jar
03-22-2017 9:47 AM


jar writes:

That's why I asked about Constitutional prohibitions. But then I also do not know what other nations have a Constitution like the US or what procedures are needed for modification. For example I understand that within the EU it is the EU Constitution that controls issues of border access. Is religion a protected item under that Constitution?

Currently, under EU law, it's up to the individual countries to determine the amount of immigration they accept from non-EU countries. EU human rights law that protects religious freedoms does not apply, both because it's only for those already here, and because migrating to Europe isn't a religious practice anyway!

Religion is only a "protected item" when harmless to others, anyway, and who's going to decide that Islam is or isn't harmful to them other than the masses?

As for constitutions, European countries are accustomed to having revolutions, tearing them up, and bringing in new ones, which is part of what I meant by "real politics". Most recently, the Eastern EU members have done that, and I think also Spain, Portugal and Greece in my lifetime as well.

In the recent Dutch elections, many commentators pointed out that Wilders' policies were unconstitutional under the Dutch constitution (and under EU treaty law). But Wilders wants to close all Mosques and ban the Koran, which is on a completely different level. He got 14% of the vote, not 55!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by jar, posted 03-22-2017 9:47 AM jar has not yet responded

  
bluegenes
Member
Posts: 2999
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 20 of 50 (803038)
03-23-2017 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by frako
03-22-2017 10:07 AM


frako writes:

Thing is most of those people who disagree with muslim immigration believe that hordes of muslim migrants total count upwards of 10 million are raping and pillaging all over europe. Because of fake news.

Most?

If the 55% who said "yes" had a statistically accurate picture of European Muslims in relation to crime, do you think it would change their replies?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by frako, posted 03-22-2017 10:07 AM frako has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by frako, posted 03-23-2017 10:19 AM bluegenes has responded

  
bluegenes
Member
Posts: 2999
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 21 of 50 (803039)
03-23-2017 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Modulous
03-22-2017 2:50 PM


Modulous writes:

There are laws against discriminating immigrant or Asylum applications on the basis of sex, race, religion etc.

Are there? Do you know in which treaty they're spelt out? I've run a few searches, and the religious discrimination stuff seems to be mainly about employment, and to concern only EU citizens or residents, not potential migrants.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Modulous, posted 03-22-2017 2:50 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Modulous, posted 03-23-2017 7:05 PM bluegenes has responded

  
frako
Member
Posts: 2687
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 22 of 50 (803044)
03-23-2017 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by bluegenes
03-23-2017 8:21 AM


if they are sane yes

but not all of them the racist ones dont care.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by bluegenes, posted 03-23-2017 8:21 AM bluegenes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by bluegenes, posted 03-24-2017 1:49 AM frako has not yet responded

    
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7407
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 23 of 50 (803094)
03-23-2017 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by bluegenes
03-23-2017 9:27 AM


Are there? Do you know in which treaty they're spelt out?

Good luck with that. I think it's pretty smeary. There is the general EC Treaty along with the Amsterdam Treaty, and the Racial Equality Directive and... It's difficult to locate a single specific wording in a single document. It may well not exist explicitly.

I've run a few searches, and the religious discrimination stuff seems to be mainly about employment, and to concern only EU citizens or residents, not potential migrants.

The best I can really tell you is that some of the more fundamental texts tend to speak of prohibitions of discrimination of 'persons' not just citizens. I've had to read through some pretty dense material, and I can't easily present it here - but the gist is that people processing migrant applications for third countries (their term) are subject to the same prohibitions of discrimination as anyone else.

I found a Proposal for a Directive that was quite explicit, but the one that passed seemed to only contain the notion implicitly. However, there is a lot of legal discussion about the problems surrounding the fact that discrimination based on nationality seems allowable where religion is not - the issue being indirect discrimination or discrimination by proxy - so it seems some people that do have the endurance to wade through European Bureacratic rules seem to think something like what I said is or at least has been going on.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by bluegenes, posted 03-23-2017 9:27 AM bluegenes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by bluegenes, posted 03-24-2017 1:17 AM Modulous has responded

    
Genomicus
Member
Posts: 813
Joined: 02-15-2012
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 24 of 50 (803100)
03-23-2017 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by New Cat's Eye
03-22-2017 11:04 AM


I doubt they're raping and pillaging, but it's not like there isn't a horde of them coming in.

Most of those numbers are the result of being birthed to Muslim parents, so "tens of millions" of Muslims aren't coming into Europe from foreign lands.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-22-2017 11:04 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
bluegenes
Member
Posts: 2999
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 25 of 50 (803101)
03-24-2017 1:17 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Modulous
03-23-2017 7:05 PM


Legal religious discrimination
Modulous writes:

Good luck with that. I think it's pretty smeary.

Yes. I found a lot of smeary stuff. However, in the page linked below, the U.K. Citizens Advice people tell us that immigration officials can exercise religious discrimination, so that must be O.K. under current E.U. law.

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/...ination-is-not-unlawful

quote:
Immigration exceptions

Some public authorities, like immigration officers are allowed to discriminate against you when they make certain immigration decisions - for example, decisions about your right to come and live in the UK.

When can some public authorities discriminate against you?

In some situations itís not unlawful for a public authority to discriminate against you because of your:

disability
race - but only in relation to nationality and ethnic or national origins
religion and belief.

These things are called protected characteristics. Discrimination which is because of one or more of these characteristics is generally unlawful under the Act.


quote:

What decisions are covered by this exception?

Public authorities are allowed to discriminate against you when they make decisions about your right to enter and stay in the UK - for example, when you apply for leave to enter or to extend your leave if you're already living in the UK.


quote:
Immigration functions

Public authorities are also allowed to discriminate against you when they carry out certain immigration functions - for example, when they carry out immigration or passport controls. But this exception only applies to race and religion and belief. Public authorities aren't allowed to discriminate against you because of your disability in this situation.

For example, if immigration officers at UK ports have been told to check people from certain countries more rigourously, this isn't unlawful race discrimination.


quote:
If thereís a law which says that some people can be treated differently in a particular situation - for example, because of their sex or religion and belief - itís not unlawful discrimination under the Equality Act if a public authority treats you differently in that situation.

National security

Public authorities are allowed to discriminate against you if this necessary for reasons of national security. But the discrimination must be no be more than what is strictly necessary to safeguard national security.


Plenty of wiggle room, it appears.

Whatever the current legal situations, there almost certainly will be heavy restrictions on Muslim immigration in the near future. A significant shift towards a more favourable perception of Muslims amongst the infidel masses would be necessary in order to prevent that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Modulous, posted 03-23-2017 7:05 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Modulous, posted 03-24-2017 2:31 PM bluegenes has not yet responded

  
bluegenes
Member
Posts: 2999
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 26 of 50 (803105)
03-24-2017 1:49 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by frako
03-23-2017 10:19 AM


frako writes:

bluegenes writes:

frako writes:

Thing is most of those people who disagree with muslim immigration believe that hordes of muslim migrants total count upwards of 10 million are raping and pillaging all over europe. Because of fake news.

Most?

If the 55% who said "yes" had a statistically accurate picture of European Muslims in relation to crime, do you think it would change their replies?

if they are sane yes
but not all of them the racist ones dont care.

Are you sure? If they knew that 60%+ of the French prison population came from France's ~8% Muslim minority, why would that knowledge make them change their minds?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by frako, posted 03-23-2017 10:19 AM frako has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Modulous, posted 03-24-2017 2:04 PM bluegenes has responded

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7407
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 27 of 50 (803138)
03-24-2017 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by bluegenes
03-24-2017 1:49 AM


Are you sure? If they knew that 60%+ of the French prison population came from France's ~8% Muslim minority, why would that knowledge make them change their minds?

I think the idea of statistically accurate was also meant to include 'complete' information. The way you worded the statistic suggests that the 8% of Muslims are committing crimes at such a rate so as to be 60% of the prison population, but that isn't actually represented in the numbers you present but is the kind of inference people might easily make.

It doesn't cover how many people are converting to Islam whilst in prison, so it could be the atheist population that gets sent to prison who then convert to Islam in large numbers whilst there.

It also misses other sociologically relevant data just like saying 'Black people in America make up 40% of the prison population but are only 12% of the population' might be saying things other than 'Blacks commit a disproportionate amount of crime.'


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by bluegenes, posted 03-24-2017 1:49 AM bluegenes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by bluegenes, posted 03-29-2017 6:31 AM Modulous has responded

    
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7407
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 28 of 50 (803139)
03-24-2017 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by bluegenes
03-24-2017 1:17 AM


Re: Legal religious discrimination
, the U.K. Citizens Advice

Given the number of exceptions the UK has secured for itself in European migration laws, I'll just raise a red flag here and suggest using the UK as a guide to Europe is probably going to lead one astray.

Plenty of wiggle room, it appears.

I don't see plenty of wiggle room, but some for sure. When I read the details of the associated laws themselves I mostly see reference to nationality. The example given is about disability, but because of something associated to that disability (violent behaviour). Being treated differently is mostly about length of process, questions and so on. The discrimination here is mostly about individuals. I don't see anything supposes a blanket 'Muslim ban' could be enacted.

Whatever the current legal situations, there almost certainly will be heavy restrictions on Muslim immigration in the near future.

Going back to the UK for a moment, I'd suggest that our need for affordable (and therefore often migrant) medical staff will probably weigh more heavily than a demographic plurality who wants limitations.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by bluegenes, posted 03-24-2017 1:17 AM bluegenes has not yet responded

    
bluegenes
Member
Posts: 2999
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 29 of 50 (803342)
03-29-2017 6:31 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Modulous
03-24-2017 2:04 PM


Modulous writes:

bluegenes writes:

Are you sure? If they knew that 60%+ of the French prison population came from France's ~8% Muslim minority, why would that knowledge make them change their minds?

I think the idea of statistically accurate was also meant to include 'complete' information.

You (wisely) say 'complete' information rather than complete information, because you know it's never complete. But frako claimed that:

frako writes:

most of those people who disagree with muslim immigration believe that hordes of muslim migrants total count upwards of 10 million are raping and pillaging all over europe. Because of fake news.

Mod writes:

The way you worded the statistic suggests that the 8% of Muslims are committing crimes at such a rate so as to be 60% of the prison population, but that isn't actually represented in the numbers you present but is the kind of inference people might easily make.

Indeed. No faking required because converts are part of the minority. It could be phrased without the "come from". ~8% of the population of France are Muslims, and 60+% of France's prison population are Muslims. It could be the headline of an article which goes on to explain that conversion in French prisons is a well known phenomenon, but most of the Muslims are from Muslim backgrounds. People in the 55% who answered "yes" in the survey could be asked to read an article on the subject like this one in a liberal newspaper, and there would be nothing there that would be likely to change their minds on the subject of increasing the presence of Islam in Europe by migration.

Modulous writes:

It doesn't cover how many people are converting to Islam whilst in prison, so it could be the atheist population that gets sent to prison who then convert to Islam in large numbers whilst there.

It also misses other sociologically relevant data just like saying 'Black people in America make up 40% of the prison population but are only 12% of the population' might be saying things other than 'Blacks commit a disproportionate amount of crime.'

Of course. But none of that supports frako's view that most of the 55% are victims of fake news, and that they would be insane not to change their minds if they had an accurate view of Muslims in relation to crime. We could present socio-economic data which shows that French Muslims are much more likely to be unemployed than non-Muslims, which is certainly true, but in what way would that persuade the 55% to import more Muslims? That fact could be presented alongside research which shows that French Muslims face considerable negative discrimination in employment, but in what way would that persuade the 55% to import more Muslims?

Observers of the situation in France might take one of the following views:

(a) Attempt to solve any existing problems while continuing some immigration.
(b) Attempt to solve any existing problems while halting further immigration
(c) Ignore the problems and continue some immigration.
(d) Ignore the problems and halt immigration.

If frako (or you) want to make a case for the insanity of any of those positions, I think you'd have a better chance with the last two (especially c) than the first two.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Modulous, posted 03-24-2017 2:04 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Modulous, posted 03-29-2017 1:28 PM bluegenes has responded

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7407
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 30 of 50 (803371)
03-29-2017 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by bluegenes
03-29-2017 6:31 AM


No faking required because converts are part of the minority

Are they? It seems reasonable but without evidence, it's just saying something.

Are the prison population mostly migrants or have they been in France most of their lives? Again, without contextual numbers the reality could be being obfuscated by a biased presentation.

But none of that supports frako's view that most of the 55% are victims of fake news, and that they would be insane not to change their minds if they had an accurate view of Muslims in relation to crime

I wasn't trying to supoprt Frako's view, I was pointing out that your counterargument against it was potentially grossly misleading. This ironically, does support Frako indirectly if the only counterargument that could be raised could be characterised as 'fake news' or better, deceptive statistics.

We could present socio-economic data which shows that French Muslims are much more likely to be unemployed than non-Muslims, which is certainly true, but in what way would that persuade the 55% to import more Muslims? That fact could be presented alongside research which shows that French Muslims face considerable negative discrimination in employment, but in what way would that persuade the 55% to import more Muslims?

It's not about convincing people to 'import more' - a distasteful turn of phrase. All that is needed is to remove the desire to ban them from migrating here by reminding people that it isn't because they Muslim, but because they are discriminated against as Migrants. If you imported Sikhs, Hindus, and treat them like shit - you'll have much the same kind of problems.It has happened before and being Muslim is irrelevant to it.

Once we untie being Muslim from 'being a problem', we can potentially discuss sane migration policies. Education is likely to reduce any tendency people have towards the notion of 'banning Muslims' as this would be increasingly seen as a futile piece of bigotry.

If frako (or you) want to make a case for the insanity of any of those positions, I think you'd have a better chance with the last two (especially c) than the first two.

If people want to halt immigration that's one thing. It's the continuing immigration but specifically denying Muslims that's a particular problem. And unfortunately - the survey question doesn't seem to be able to separate the people that think we should inhibit or forbid any further migration from those that think we should only do so for Muslims. Maybe the study you cite goes into this: How many of those 55% are also saying 'stop Polish immigration, stop Canadian immigration, stop Indian immigration, stop African immigration'?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by bluegenes, posted 03-29-2017 6:31 AM bluegenes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by bluegenes, posted 04-04-2017 1:42 PM Modulous has responded

    
Prev1
2
34Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017