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Author Topic:   Immigrants good for me and you? Bad? How to make a good answer that is accurate?
LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 1292
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 1 of 338 (804023)
04-04-2017 1:11 AM


I did a little research and was going to post it in a thread but got sidetracked into talking about the Roman Empire. The thread author then said he only wanted to discuss the constitution. I can't find a suitable thread for this discussion so I propose a new one. This is it.

Ian Goldin has a little book (I need to read his bigger works sometime which are far better ) which I will quote.

Divided Nations: Why global governance is failing, and what we can do about it (Oxford)

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=ian+goldin++divided+...

On page 36, he shows how many migrants there are presently.

quote:

36

In 2010 there were over 220 million international migrants, more than double the figure recorded in 1980.

59

The era of accelerated globalization since 1990 has ironically been associated with the proliferation of nation states and increasingly stringent border controls.


More migration but lots of barriers to bottleneck the situation. The benefits to consider are many.

quote:

36

The key benefit of migration to the receiving country is that, by allowing people to move, it improves the welfare of the society as a whole. In Exceptional People : How Migration Shaped Our World and Will Define Our Future my co authors and I
show that migration brings many benefits to the migrants and also to the host country

....
As the US continues to demonstrate, the flux and mix of cultures leads to innovation. It is now calculated that migrants provide more than half of the innovation in the US, even though they are only around 12 percent of the population, with Silicon Valley perhaps providing among the most compelling evidence for the beneficial effects of high skilled migration.


https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=immigrants+innovatio...

I had some good mainstream media articles on the astonishing benefits of innovation from the immigrants but failed to post them. The issue of "sending countries" suffering a supposed brain drain is a false alarm and it is just not the accurate way of seeing what goes on. The real thing is "brain circulation" happening for the benefit of all including the sending nations. The dynamic is very mutually beneficial.

Look at the benefits of open borders.

quote:

36

The World Bank estimates that increasing migration by 3 percent of the workforce in developed countries between 2005 and 2025 would result in global gains of U. S. $356 billion, and completely opening borders over the next twenty-five years would yield the world economy an extra US $39 trillion and radically reduce poverty.


This is not an easy policy to implement but understand that the 40 trillion dollars in benefits to the economy would be at least 20% higher growth than would otherwise be the case. The world economy is under 100 trillion dollars now and not growing too much lately. The world wide growth benefits of these "open borders " are only based on free human travel and do NOT include the huge additional benefits of 100% free trade and tearing down the gargantuan and endless trade barriers. Both Europeans and Americans pay over $1000 more per person each year on food due to disastrous protectionism. The world wide benefits there are potentially limitless if we somehow managed to get the political will to do the right thing and put humanity above narrow and greedy special interests . Putting humanity first for a change and slaying nationalism and xenophobia would help us all - even the nationalist minded folk who are mislead into cutting their own throats (thinking in their own 1 dimensional way to be doing something good for themselves ).

Without major changes, the most rosy scenario doesn't have the world economy above $200 trillion by 2035. Opening borders (now!) alone would add over 20% (and probably much more to the economy. The growth (the added trillions above where we are now at the end of 25 years) would actually be much more than 20%.

Lots of issues to look at.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
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Admin
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From: EvC Forum
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Message 2 of 338 (804024)
04-04-2017 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by LamarkNewAge
04-04-2017 1:11 AM


LamarkNewAge writes:

Ian Goldin has a little book...

Please provide the title and a link (e.g., to Amazon or Google).


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-04-2017 1:11 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
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LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1292
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 3 of 338 (804025)
04-05-2017 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Admin
04-04-2017 8:26 AM


I fixed it yesterday. Can I start the debate now? There is alot of b.s. to shoot down
I can't wait to tackle this b.s. about immigrants coming over here to "sit on their butts and not work".

New York has about 3 million and 23 thousand (according to figures from a few years ago which are the most recent) immigrants among a population of 8.5 million.

5.5 million New Yorkers born here (64%)

3 million immigrants (36%)

You would think that would suggest that immigrants would be about 1/3 of the workforce if they are working on par with native Americans.

Anything less than that would at least indicate a tiny bit of evidence backing up the claim that they come here and don't work.

Guess what?

Immigrants are 47% of the workforce here in the city I was born in.

So much for the "they just want our benefits which Americans get when not working" claim.


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Admin
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Message 4 of 338 (804027)
04-06-2017 1:42 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Immigrants good for me and you? Bad? How to make a good answer that is accurate? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1292
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 5 of 338 (812738)
06-19-2017 10:33 PM


You must see this Bret Stephens, Only Mass Deportation Can Save Us June 17,2017 artic
This controversial right winger demolished anti-immigration arguments in one of the best op-ed pieces that I have ever seen.

I am going to quote just a smidge

quote:

On point after point, America's nonimmigrants are failing our country. Crime? A study by the Cato Institute notes that non-immigrants are incarcerated at nearly twice the rate of illegal immigrants, and at more than three times the rate of legal ones.


83% of illegal immigrants are Christian in identification while nonimmigrants are 70.6%

Twice the number of new business starts come from immigrants. In Silicon Valley and everywhere else.

Check out the article!

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1292
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 6 of 338 (814079)
07-04-2017 8:38 AM


Landmark study from the National Academy of Sciences, Engineering and Medicine (2016
The scientific research shows that immigrants cost us in the first generation but the costs are small.

1st generation immigrants cost U. S. taxpayers $57.4 billion a year.

2nd generation ddescendants of immigrants benefit us $30.5 billion a year.

3rd generation immigrants' descendants benefit the national tax treasures to a net tune of $223.8 billion.

We have 32 million legal and 11 millions first generation undocumented immigrant human beings presently.

Understand that the $71.5 billion defense budget increase ( will be a cost that must be paid for each and every year - NEXT year and for every year we must pay for ) that the Congress just proposed is only possible to pay for due to our small upfront investment in immigrants from the past few generations ( and longer back ).

If the American military is even 1/10 as vital to freedom as militaristic commentary constantly insists, then it is vitally REQUIRED that we increase overall annual immigration numbers by several orders of magnitude.


    
Phat
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Posts: 11656
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 7 of 338 (814119)
07-04-2017 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by LamarkNewAge
04-04-2017 1:11 AM


The Melting Pot
Do the statistics take into account any decrease in average earnings for any percentage of the global population or is it all a win/win? I fear that the bottom 20% would benefit, but I'm less sure if allowing cheaper labor into a country would help everyone.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-04-2017 1:11 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
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LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1292
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 8 of 338 (814123)
07-04-2017 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Phat
07-04-2017 2:26 PM


Re: The Melting Pot
The dislocated folks are the types of economic consequences that get lots of attention due to the fact that hurting segments of a population will be politically active. There will be winners and loosers all over, but especially in the relatively rich countries that the poorer people will migrate to. The hurting folks will get their due attention regardless of what the studies look for.

That is the situation in the rich host countries.

As for the global population at large, the fact that you have a poorer part of the world (which will have folks who will migrate to the greener pastures like the United States ) means that there will be upfront costs to the host nation.

The question of the day is actually several questions about how much the respective parties will get from the deal and how long it will take. (As well as who gets hurt in the process ) The parties are the citizens of the richer host country, the immigrants, the state and federal coffers, the jobs, the economy, the employment rate, etc. Then the (not quite seen as "patriotic") concern about the overseas financial situation will be more relevant than many might think at first glance. The better off the world is, the less people will want to immigrate to the United States to start with.

The ironic thing is that the immigrants help our national economy, federal deficit, national debt, economic growth, employment, etc. But the average person thinks that the poorer people coming here hurts us so immigrant arrivals are (supposedly ) a "bad thing" .

I wish that there was a World Constitution that gave everyone rights ( like health care rights to see any doctor, anywhere, regardless of your national origin and residential address ) so this question of "who benefits more" is irrelevant.

But we see immigrants as "bad" so the fact that the wealth is going up in the rest of the world will reduce the amount of immigration to the USA so that is "good" (except it really isn't good really because the immigrants really do "help us " though it isn't really politically correct to admit that they are beneficial ).


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LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1292
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 9 of 338 (814352)
07-07-2017 12:12 PM


Bret Stephens article on immigrants was popular with alot of folks (not just me )
From the June 25 New York Times

quote:

2. Only Mass Deportation Can Save America
Published online June 16, this Op-Ed article by Bret Stephens remained popular for the entirety of last week. "I'm jesting about deporting 'real Americans' en mass. (Who would take them in, anyway?), Mr. Stephens wrote. "But then the threat of mass deportation has been no joke with this administration. "

The left had a fit over this conservative global warming skeptic being hired by a fairly liberal newspaper.

Just like the populist right will have a fit over his total demolition of popular anti-immigrant propaganda.

(Will his fact filled article get the coverage that anti-science theories get? )

The media likes to present the Global Warming skeptic arguments but will pseudo science coverage be matched in total airtime by the fact-filled evidence that demonstrates the benefits of immigrants (contrary to popular anti-immigrant lies that we have heard presented as truth ) ?


    
LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 1292
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 10 of 338 (837778)
08-09-2018 12:30 AM


GUARDIAN: Democrats need a coherent immigration position (Open Borders best position)
Nice that somebody noticed what I long ago noticed.

The Democrats suck and they aren't an opposition party (they play the same role that the late Alan Combs played when he was on the Sean Hannity show, just useful fodder for those promoting the Republican line).

Immigration policy is too important to just simply give an incomplete and (at best)abbreviated debate. The American people deserve to have all possible policies engrained in (our heads)the national debate.

https://www.theguardian.com/...-policy-open-borders-dreamers

quote:

Why Democrats should support open borders

Reece Jones

The Republican position is coherent, but racist. The Democrats need a forceful pro-immigration rebuttal to beat it

Although the US Senate is holding a debate on immigration policy, the Republican leadership has already settled on an extreme position that will substantially reduce all immigration to the United States.

Senate majority leader Mitch McConnell said the debate will end this week and indicated that the Secure and Succeed Act, proposed by senators Chuck Grassley and Tom Cotton but voted down by the Senate on Thursday 39-60, was the only bill that could pass the House and be signed by the president. Senator Cotton said on Tuesday that it was a non-negotiable “best and final offer”. In the face of this recalcitrance, the Democrats must rethink their current incoherent immigration policy and argue robustly for more open borders.

The Republican plan would have allocated $25bn for border security, ended the diversity visa, and substantially restricted family reunification visas in exchange for a 12-year path for citizenship, including “good moral character checks”, for the 1.8 million people who were qualified for the Daca program. Overall, the plan would reduce legal immigration to the US by 35%, or more than 350,000 people per year mostly from Latin America, Asia and Africa.

Dreamers deadlock: Congress at impasse as pressure mounts to act

Read more

It is logical to support immigration restrictions if you believe that the United States is fundamentally an Anglo-European culture with western civilizational roots. This logic drove the United States’ earliest immigration laws from the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882 to the Immigration Act of 1924 that established quotas to protect a racially defined notion of who could enter the United States. Subsequent immigration laws removed the explicitly racist elements, but have continued to limit the number of immigrants, the vast majority of whom are not white.

The core of the Democratic position on immigration is harder to discern. Democrats are in favor of some border security, but definitely not a wall. Democrats favor some immigrants such as Dreamers, but accept the status quo that restricts immigration from most of the planet. Since the Republicans have come clean on their desire to reduce legal immigration, Democrats should formulate a forceful pro-immigration argument in favor of open borders.

....
Open borders could have an enormous positive impact on GDP worldwide. Even critics of immigration, such as George Borjas, acknowledge this: “The removal of immigration restrictions would indeed lead to a huge increase in GDP: global wealth would increase by $40tn – almost a 60% rise. Moreover, the gain would accrue each year after the restrictions were removed.” Given the clear economic benefit, the conservative Wall Street Journal ran an editorial in 1984 arguing for a five word amendment to the US constitution: “There shall be open borders.”

The concern that some citizens might lose jobs to immigrants is not supported by research. One study found migrant and native workers are employed in different sectors of the economy, another showed that migrants create 1.2 additional jobs beyond the job they do because they rent an apartment, buy a car, and frequent local businesses.


See link for more in article

The Open Borders position needs to be heard.

(We need some real policy choices)

Nice if we had a true opposition party.

Can't get good policy if Democrats don't shape up (the Democratic incumbents are a proud lot, and they - by and large - never get shipped out, so we need to demand they shape up)


Replies to this message:
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RAZD
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Posts: 19721
From: the other end of the sidewalk
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(2)
Message 11 of 338 (837787)
08-09-2018 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by LamarkNewAge
08-09-2018 12:30 AM


Open Borders, work crews, path to citizenship
The Democrats suck and they aren't an opposition party (they play the same role that the late Alan Combs played when he was on the Sean Hannity show, just useful fodder for those promoting the Republican line).

Immigration policy is too important to just simply give an incomplete and (at best)abbreviated debate. The American people deserve to have all possible policies engrained in (our heads)the national debate.

https://www.theguardian.com/...-policy-open-borders-dreamers

quote:
Why Democrats should support open borders

Reece Jones

The Republican position is coherent, but racist. The Democrats need a forceful pro-immigration rebuttal to beat it


Open borders yes, but also a path to citizenship. I would propose a work crew program for immigrants like what was used during the depression to create jobs, but with the work crews available for farmers, factories, etc, AND with night school in english and american politics/history. When you pass the citizenship test you can leave the work crew program.

Enjoy


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jar
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Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 12 of 338 (837789)
08-09-2018 10:29 AM


Rio Grande Valley, Hidalgo County & Mission Tx
The Rio Grande Valley may be a great representation of what Latino and Hispanic immigration influence might mean.

First some basics. The Rio Grande Valley is four counties that border the Rio Grande river. It is predominately a Latino/Hispanic community with 90% of the population identified as Hispanic or Latino.

The county I live in is Hidalgo and it is over 80% Hispanic or Latino.

The city is Mission and it too is 80% Hispanic or Latino.

Traditionally it has been an open border until pretty recently and it was common to cross the border for dinner or groceries or work or school or health care or visit family and friends with nothing more in the way of identification than a drivers license or id card. The system was pretty much the same as at the US/Canadian border; "What's the purpose of your visit? Do you have anything to declare? Have a nice day."

The Rio Grande Valley is generally pretty liberal and 69% of the votes in the last Presidential election were for Clinton and both the Libertarian and Green Party also received votes.

The area is relatively poor with a median income of just over $30,000.00.

A significant portion of the population speaks only Spanish with that being common among US born families as well as immigrants. The family across the street from me is an example. The husband was born and raised in the US and speaks ONLY Spanish while his wife was born and educated in Mexico and speaks Spanish, English, French and conversational Italian.

Another significant portion of the local population lives here in the US but goes daily across the border to work in the maquiladoras which are the major industrial base in the area. This side of the river is primarily agricultural, small business and tourist based.

The cities across the border in Mexico are generally significantly larger and more populated than those on this side of the border. The Mexican side is a more diverse mix of economic development with industry, agriculture, finance and tourism bases.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

  
frako
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Posts: 2797
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 13 of 338 (837797)
08-09-2018 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by LamarkNewAge
04-04-2017 1:11 AM


I think that in over 20 mass migrations in documented history 19 had a positive effect on the country where they have arrived. The only ones that had a negative effect where in Iran i think where they made a 5 million geto town that just saps resources and produces noting and is a hellhole for those that live behind those walls.

This is all from memory though so do feel free to check up on my statements.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


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Faith
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Posts: 30263
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 14 of 338 (837801)
08-09-2018 1:40 PM


Standards versus chaos
There is nothing wrong with legal immigration that is designed for the improvement of the nation, but even if illegal uncontrolled immigration has some positive effects why support such a chaotic nonsystem when sensible nations have always had immigration standards?

And of course I object to this kneejerk PC leftist accusation of racism of anyone who supports such standards. The standards usually have to do with level of education and shared cultural values, NOT racism. If you want to import more laborers or refugees that's fine too, but do it with forethought and planning and voter participation. What is this big push for having no standards at all?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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ringo
Member
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From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 15 of 338 (837802)
08-09-2018 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Faith
08-09-2018 1:40 PM


Re: Standards versus chaos
Faith writes:

... even if illegal uncontrolled immigration has some positive effects why support such a chaotic nonsystem when sensible nations have always had immigration standards?


You answered your own question. You Americans are schizophrenic about illegal immigration. You get your knickers in a twist about "illegality" but you know you depend on the illegals. Running in all directions at once is inevitable.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

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