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Author | Topic: Immigrants good for me and you? Bad? How to make a good answer that is accurate? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Capt Stormfield Member Posts: 429 From: Vancouver Island Joined:
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...perhaps I'll come back... Perhaps you will. What's certain is that you will neither grasp nor address the underlying principle when you do. You are quite happy for government to participate in the economy (or in regulating culture and behavior) in the areas that are important or useful to you, not so much in those that aren't. What you fail to realize is that your choice of an infinitely flexible qualifier like "one way or another" is an exercise in transparently child-like linguistic foot-stamping that translates roughly as "me, me, my way".
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2423 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
Hyroglyphx said:
quote: But Norway might possibly have a response that challenges that line of thought. Government Pension Fund of Norway - Wikipedia
quote: The fund saves pretty good, but it spends out a portion (on Norwegian social programs) every year. It might be superior to a private system.
quote: Nowway has muscle. It owns oil and has a single payer health care system.
quote: In 2013 (when the currency was stronger in Norway), this was the health care spending per person.
quote: But in 2016, it was much less.
quote: Here are 2016 numbers. (has a good set of graphs, and includes Norway) How does health spending in the U.S. compare to other countries? - Peterson-KFF Health System Tracker While Norway is at around $6,500 per person (it isn't on a chart that lists the actual number, but is on a graphical comparison thingy), here is the United States and Switzerland. United States $10,348 Switzerland $7,919 Norway has a per capita income of $82,000 presently (Switzerland is around $86,000), while we are at about $62,000. Our health care is 50% more expensive. The government pays 85% of the total Norwegian costs, so I think it is fair to say that the same $ amount is spent by the government's of both countries. The difference is the smaller dollar amount spent out of pocket in Norway. It could be that the socialist system does create wealth when it owns an industry, like oil, that is BOTH profitable and maximizes economic growth. The health care system might be half the PER GDP COST, which could be seen as "reducing GDP 7-9%", but if it is efficient, then it is macro-economically favorable and in actuality it ends up facilitating growth when the bigger picture is viewed from afar. Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
You don't have a clue about much of anything. All the "one way or another" meant was that people who don't drive also benefit from roads by many indirect means, since they need others to be able to get to them at times, police, ambulances, firefighters, family and friends, delivery people and what not, as well as needing rides themselves. How this amounts to foot-stamping is some weird mental mess of your own. Also you have no idea what I might need or find useful. There is such a thing as supporting an idea because you judge it a good idea for society in general rather than always supporting only things that benefit oneself. But I do think that may be a concept people on the Left have no way of grasping.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Pondering this I thought it might be more accurate to say the Left thinks in terms of benefiting classes of people (a chosen class they assume wants to benefit itself being the connection with what I just said), it's always about benefitting somebody in particular, some class in particular, and not about the best policy for society as a whole, they just don't think that way.
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Capt Stormfield Member Posts: 429 From: Vancouver Island Joined:
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... rather than always supporting only things that benefit oneself. Wherein your idiotic straw man makes my point yet again. Where are you getting the idea that advocacy for government involvement in the economy necessarily equates with benefiting oneself? You rationalize government spending on infrastructure based on your perception that it benefits everyone, if only indirectly, and give it a name ("public works") that allows you to pretend that it's different than government spending on other programs that have equally complex ramifications for society. The benefits of government assistance in providing health care, housing, education, etc. is no more limited to the direct recipients of those services than road building is to road builders. The difference lies primarily in your fear of a word. This is hardly surprising, since your world view is based on superstition and symbolism. As a rational conservative, I see your inability to see past blind ideology in the same way a scientifically literate believer would see your creationism - a tribal reflex, uncontaminated by reason or understanding. You have confused conservatism with backwardness, and because of people like you and your contemptible disdain for critical thought or learning, your country is falling behind the curve of other industrialized societies in nearly every metric for success and well being.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Gosh what a glorious example of ad hominem. I had to look more than once to see if there's even one substantive point in that morass. I'm really not sure, but if there is I don't know how to extricate it from the swamp of belligerent false accusations.
I like this guy Ben Shapiro who you can find at YouTube denouncing socialism as theft. See that's the difference between socialism and public works, it's taking from those who have means to give to those who don't. That is the role of charity, which he also mentions: we should give to help the poor, and that is an obligation felt by religious people as he points out, but not by atheists and socialists who think the poor should be helped by robbing the rich. They also have the bizarre idea that rich people are rich because they take it from the poor. That's maybe the stupidest idea that socialists have, stupid, perniciously evil and dangerous for the welfare of society as a whole because it encourages a righteous sense of entitlement that encourages theft and violence. The rich are actually creating wealth that previously didn't exist, they are not taking it from anyone. I'm saying this, as far as I know Shapiro hasn't said it. Here's one of Ben Shapiro . I think he does a really good job of analyzing the problems with socialism. He's good on the subject of a basically capitalistic society having a few socialistic programs. It works as long as the socialistic part doesn't get too big (although it is still theft and still has negative effects on society as a whole). He mentions the countries that have some socialistic programs that are mistakenly pointed to as if they were socialistic societies, saying that no, they are capitalistic societies that have enough wealth to support some socialistic programs, but that the overall effect of these programs is negative. He doesn't mention public works in this one and I don't know if he does anywhere else either since this is all I listened to, but his main point is that socialism takes away the incentive to work and invent because you don't get to keep the money you make, it goes to other people. That is not the case with public works at all since we all share in them equally and we are happy to support them. The solution to the problems of the poor has to be charity, I don't see an alternative that really works over the long haul.
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JonF Member (Idle past 196 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
The right in the US thinks only of benefits the 1%.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The right thinks in terms of freedom, not classes of people at all.
Besides, it is that 1% that creates the wealth that prospers society as a whole enough to be able to support some socialistic programs. Read my post above which is about all this. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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JonF Member (Idle past 196 days) Posts: 6174 Joined:
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It's the 1% that hoards the wealth and prospers society as a whole not one whit. Plenty of studies have shown that.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Oh nonsense. People with that much money invest it, they don't hoard it. What would be the point of hoarding it anyway? And how DO they hoard it? If it's in a bank account it earns interest and the bank invests it. If it's under their mattress then maybe you could say it's out of circulation but how often is that the case? And who cares anyway? if they earned it it's their money, what business is it of yours? And besides it's in the process of earning it that they contribute wealth by the projects they finance, how else would that happen?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Coragyps Member (Idle past 762 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined:
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Whenever I hear someone say that their wealth is the result of lots of hard work, I do stop and wonder exactly whose hard work?
- some observant person
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Just the usual envious ignorant leftist said that.
If people were not being encouraged to envy the rich they might spend more time doing something creative to improve things, which would improve their own lot Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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It's really, really strange that people that call themselve ‘Christians' admire people and vote for economic systems that are the exact opposite of what Jesus's teachings would tell them. I’ll never understand that.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Capt Stormfield Member Posts: 429 From: Vancouver Island Joined:
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I’ll never understand that. Try driving an ice-pick just a little way into your forehead. That should help.
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Capt Stormfield Member Posts: 429 From: Vancouver Island Joined: |
He's good on the subject of a basically capitalistic society having a few socialistic programs. It works as long as the socialistic part doesn't get too big (although it is still theft and still has negative effects on society as a whole). He mentions the countries that have some socialistic programs that are mistakenly pointed to as if they were socialistic societies, saying that no, they are capitalistic societies that have enough wealth to support some socialistic programs, but that the overall effect of these programs is negative. Or, in other words, successfully socialized countries aren't really socialized because socialism doesn't work. Gosh, I wonder what's really under that kilt....
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