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Author Topic:   Immigrants good for me and you? Bad? How to make a good answer that is accurate?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 226 of 353 (838754)
08-27-2018 2:49 AM
Reply to: Message 221 by Faith
08-26-2018 6:08 PM


Re: Robber Barons
Faith writes:
The tithe is voluntary,
The tithe is specifically mentioned in the Books of Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. The tithe system was organized in a three-year cycle, corresponding to the Shemittah-cycle. These tithes were in reality more like taxes for the people of Israel and were mandatory, not optional giving. This tithe was distributed locally "within thy gates" (Deuteronomy 14:28) to support the Levites and assist the poor.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Faith, posted 08-26-2018 6:08 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by Faith, posted 08-27-2018 6:02 AM Tangle has not replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 227 of 353 (838756)
08-27-2018 4:20 AM
Reply to: Message 221 by Faith
08-26-2018 6:08 PM


Re: Robber Barons
The tithe is voluntary, you are not put in jail if you fail to give it. And in reality a lot more than the tithe is normally given by those who can afford it. Besides which, in many churches there is a separate fund collected to help impoverished church members. As well as separate funds to support various ministries such as the sevices given to women with unwanted pregnancies, and local food banks and so on.
Perhaps nowdays but in the good old days of the curch before this fad of non violance came arround, you had to pay taxes to the curch. and taxes to your lord. a tenth of everything you had, not just your profits had to go to the curch every year or you would go to debters prison or worse.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Faith, posted 08-26-2018 6:08 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by Faith, posted 08-27-2018 6:00 AM frako has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 228 of 353 (838759)
08-27-2018 6:00 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by frako
08-27-2018 4:20 AM


Re: Robber Barons
Perhaps nowdays but in the good old days of the curch before this fad of non violance came arround, you had to pay taxes to the curch. and taxes to your lord. a tenth of everything you had, not just your profits had to go to the curch every year or you would go to debters prison or worse.
But what authority mandated this? God didn't, meaning the Bible doesn't that I know of.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by frako, posted 08-27-2018 4:20 AM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by frako, posted 08-28-2018 3:04 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 229 of 353 (838760)
08-27-2018 6:02 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by Tangle
08-27-2018 2:49 AM


Re: Robber Barons
As I just said to frako, I'm not aware of the Bible's making the tithe mandatory. Can you give a specific reference for that?
ABE: Found a reference that those who didn't tithe were put under a curse, which certainly sounds pretty mandatory, but I didn't look it up.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Tangle, posted 08-27-2018 2:49 AM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by ringo, posted 08-27-2018 12:04 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 230 of 353 (838763)
08-27-2018 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 192 by Faith
08-26-2018 3:27 PM


Re: Socialism
Faith writes:
What *I* have trouble understanding is how anyone could impute the advocacy of theft to Jesus.
Simple. You're misusing the word "theft'. Jesus advocated paying your taxes. Period.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Faith, posted 08-26-2018 3:27 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 231 of 353 (838764)
08-27-2018 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 222 by Faith
08-26-2018 6:14 PM


Re: Robber Barons
Faith writes:
Weird. I have to prove that there's a difference between giving voluntarily to help out your impoverished neighbor and having to pay a tax to help him out that if you fail to pay it will put you in jail?
Jesus said pay tour taxes. What part of that do you not understand?
"Voluntary" giving is a copout. It's often used as an excuse to give less than you owe.
The lady with the two mites gave all that she had; the rich men "voluntarily" gave much more in the absolute sense but much less according to Jesus; their "voluntary" giving was inadequate. Jesus told another rich man to sell what he had and give it to the poor; it doesn't get more socialistic than that. In the Old Testament, the widow gave Elijah all of her food.
quote:
Ecclesiastes 11:1 Cast thy bread upon the waters: for thou shalt find it after many days.
i.e. there is a return on your investment.
It's a very important Biblical principle that you're spitting on.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Faith, posted 08-26-2018 6:14 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by Faith, posted 08-27-2018 12:46 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 232 of 353 (838765)
08-27-2018 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by Faith
08-27-2018 6:02 AM


Re: Robber Barons
Faith writes:
I'm not aware of the Bible's making the tithe mandatory.
The Bible speaks of the tithe belonging to God. Not paying it would really be theft.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Faith, posted 08-27-2018 6:02 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 233 of 353 (838767)
08-27-2018 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by ringo
08-27-2018 11:50 AM


Re: Robber Barons
Just as a matter of fact voluntary giving ends up giving a lot more than a tenth. Also in ancient Israel that was the case, whether the tithe was mandatory or not, and I gather it was. For the Church it is not mandatory, it is replaced by voluntary giving from the heart.
The tithe in Israel did not go to the support of poor people though, there were other means for taking care of them. The tithe did support the Levites, who were the priests, but they were an essential part of the functioning of the theocracy so that was more like using taxes to support public servants, which I keep saying is a legitimate government function.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by ringo, posted 08-27-2018 11:50 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by JonF, posted 08-27-2018 12:50 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 235 by ringo, posted 08-27-2018 1:14 PM Faith has replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 234 of 353 (838768)
08-27-2018 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by Faith
08-27-2018 12:46 PM


Re: Robber Barons
Just as a matter of fact voluntary giving ends up giving a lot more than a tenth.
[citation required]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Faith, posted 08-27-2018 12:46 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 235 of 353 (838769)
08-27-2018 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by Faith
08-27-2018 12:46 PM


Re: Robber Barons
Faith writes:
Just as a matter of fact voluntary giving ends up giving a lot more than a tenth.
That's irrelevant. Ten per cent was always the minimum. As Jesus said, the ideal is 100%.
Faith writes:
For the Church it is not mandatory, it is replaced by voluntary giving from the heart.
Yes, that's the problem, as I already mentioned. Christians often try to weasel out from Jesus' ideal.
Faith writes:
The tithe in Israel did not go to the support of poor people though...
quote:
Deuteronomy 26:12 When thou hast made an end of tithing all the tithes of thine increase the third year, which is the year of tithing, and hast given it unto the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within thy gates, and be filled;
Stranger = immigrant. Fatherless , widow = poor.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Faith, posted 08-27-2018 12:46 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by Faith, posted 08-27-2018 3:12 PM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 236 of 353 (838770)
08-27-2018 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by ringo
08-27-2018 1:14 PM


Re: Robber Barons
Thank you, that's good information.
It is not to be applied to a nontheocracy, a secular state, however, where people are not in covenant with God and each other, so taxing to give to others is stealing. The appropriate principle is giving from the heart, not taxation, and to that end the government should get its hands out of it.
About the fact that Christians aren't obligated to tithe, thatis in scripture, that's not something we made up: our rule is the rule of giving from the heart. And it is a fact that just as Israel did, Christians give a lot more than a tenth.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by ringo, posted 08-27-2018 1:14 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by ringo, posted 08-27-2018 3:40 PM Faith has not replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1025 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 237 of 353 (838771)
08-27-2018 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by Faith
08-26-2018 4:09 PM


Re: Robber Barons
1) the Roman Empire was not a welfare state so He didn't have to address that problem,
While this is wildly divergent from the topic, Rome was in a sense a 'welfare state'. It is, in fact, often claimed by modern libertarian historians as an example of the inevitable failure of welfare states.
You may be familiar with the phrase 'bread and circuses'. This of course stems from ancient Rome - specifically from the satirist Juvenal - who claimed the rulers of Rome simply bought the support of the populace by the distribution of bread to the poor and by the provision of frivolous entertainment (incidentay they didn't actually distribute bread in Juvenal's day, the dole was paid in grain, but this was changed to the distribution of bread not long after under Aurelian - along with salt, pork and wine).
In Jesus' day, about a third of the Roman populace were living off the free grain distributed by the state

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Faith, posted 08-26-2018 4:09 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by Faith, posted 08-27-2018 3:17 PM caffeine has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 238 of 353 (838772)
08-27-2018 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by caffeine
08-27-2018 3:15 PM


Re: Robber Barons
Lots of good information here. You may change my mind about the welfare state.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by caffeine, posted 08-27-2018 3:15 PM caffeine has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 239 of 353 (838773)
08-27-2018 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by Faith
08-27-2018 3:12 PM


Re: Robber Barons
Faith writes:
It is not to be applied to a nontheocracy, a secular state, however, where people are not in covenant with God and each other....
Says who? God doesn't have a covenant with the state. The individual is responsible for living up to the terms of the covenant.
Faith writes:
The appropriate principle is giving from the heart, not taxation, and to that end the government should get its hands out of it.
You're contradicting Jesus. He said pay your taxes. If that was theft, why would He tell you to do it?
Faith writes:
About the fact that Christians aren't obligated to tithe, thatis in scripture...
It would be nice if you actually quoted scripture once in a while, seeing as you're almost always wrong about what it says.
Faith writes:
And it is a fact that just as Israel did, Christians give a lot more than a tenth.
That's still irrelevant. The ideal is 100%.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Faith, posted 08-27-2018 3:12 PM Faith has not replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 240 of 353 (838807)
08-28-2018 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by Faith
08-27-2018 6:00 AM


Re: Robber Barons
Romans 13:6-7 ESV / 108 helpful votes
For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.
Matthew 22:17-21 ESV / 90 helpful votes
Tell us, then, what you think. Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not? But Jesus, aware of their malice, said, Why put me to the test, you hypocrites? Show me the coin for the tax. And they brought him a denarius. And Jesus said to them, Whose likeness and inscription is this? They said, Caesar's. Then he said to them, Therefore render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.
Romans 13:1-7 ESV / 62 helpful votes
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. ...
Romans 13:7-8 ESV / 41 helpful votes
Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed. Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.
Romans 13:5-7 ESV / 34 helpful votes
Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.
Romans 13:1 ESV / 33 helpful votes
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.
Romans 13:2 ESV / 29 helpful votes
Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.
Matthew 22:17-29 ESV / 25 helpful votes
Tell us, then, what you think. Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not? But Jesus, aware of their malice, said, Why put me to the test, you hypocrites? Show me the coin for the tax. And they brought him a denarius. And Jesus said to them, Whose likeness and inscription is this? They said, Caesar's. Then he said to them, Therefore render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. ...
Matthew 22:15-22 ESV / 23 helpful votes
Then the Pharisees went and plotted how to entangle him in his words. And they sent their disciples to him, along with the Herodians, saying, Teacher, we know that you are true and teach the way of God truthfully, and you do not care about anyone's opinion, for you are not swayed by appearances. Tell us, then, what you think. Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not? But Jesus, aware of their malice, said, Why put me to the test, you hypocrites? Show me the coin for the tax. And they brought him a denarius. ...
Luke 3:12-13 ESV / 21 helpful votes
Tax collectors also came to be baptized and said to him, Teacher, what shall we do? And he said to them, Collect no more than you are authorized to do.
Matthew 17:24-27 ESV / 21 helpful votes
When they came to Capernaum, the collectors of the two-drachma tax went up to Peter and said, Does your teacher not pay the tax? He said, Yes. And when he came into the house, Jesus spoke to him first, saying, What do you think, Simon? From whom do kings of the earth take toll or tax? From their sons or from others? And when he said, From others, Jesus said to him, Then the sons are free. However, not to give offense to them, go to the sea and cast a hook and take the first fish that comes up, and when you open its mouth you will find a shekel. Take that and give it to them for me and for yourself.
Mark 12:13-17 ESV / 17 helpful votes
And they sent to him some of the Pharisees and some of the Herodians, to trap him in his talk. And they came and said to him, Teacher, we know that you are true and do not care about anyone's opinion. For you are not swayed by appearances, but truly teach the way of God. Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not? Should we pay them, or should we not? But, knowing their hypocrisy, he said to them, Why put me to the test? Bring me a denarius and let me look at it. And they brought one. And he said to them, Whose likeness and inscription is this? They said to him, Caesar's. Jesus said to them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marveled at him.
Luke 20:19-26 ESV / 16 helpful votes
The scribes and the chief priests sought to lay hands on him at that very hour, for they perceived that he had told this parable against them, but they feared the people. So they watched him and sent spies, who pretended to be sincere, that they might catch him in something he said, so as to deliver him up to the authority and jurisdiction of the governor. So they asked him, Teacher, we know that you speak and teach rightly, and show no partiality, but truly teach the way of God. Is it lawful for us to give tribute to Caesar, or not? But he perceived their craftiness, and said to them, ...
Matthew 17:27 ESV / 15 helpful votes
However, not to give offense to them, go to the sea and cast a hook and take the first fish that comes up, and when you open its mouth you will find a shekel. Take that and give it to them for me and for yourself.
Luke 2:1-6 ESV / 13 helpful votes
In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered. This was the first registration when Quirinius was governor of Syria. And all went to be registered, each to his own town. And Joseph also went up from Galilee, from the town of Nazareth, to Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and lineage of David, to be registered with Mary, his betrothed, who was with child. ...
Genesis 14:20 ESV / 12 helpful votes
And blessed be God Most High, who has delivered your enemies into your hand! And Abram gave him a tenth of everything.
Matthew 21:31-32 ESV / 11 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
Which of the two did the will of his father? They said, The first. Jesus said to them, Truly, I say to you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes go into the kingdom of God before you. For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes believed him. And even when you saw it, you did not afterward change your minds and believe him.
Cmmon the romans invented christianity and made it mandatory to control peole, do you really think they would not make sure that taxes and anything an authority figure says are mandatory.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Faith, posted 08-27-2018 6:00 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by Faith, posted 08-28-2018 3:15 PM frako has replied
 Message 242 by Faith, posted 08-28-2018 9:29 PM frako has not replied

  
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