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Author Topic:   Immigrants good for me and you? Bad? How to make a good answer that is accurate?
Faith
Member
Posts: 29529
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 241 of 329 (838808)
08-28-2018 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by frako
08-28-2018 3:04 PM


Re: Robber Barons
The Romans didn't invent Christianity, the first "universal bishop" or antichrist Pope that started their domination of the Church, came in 606 AD.

Anyway, I didn't say anything about refusing to pay taxes, I said we should pay taxes no matter what they are for -- except for mentioning that an argument could be made for refusing, which I'm not making.

What I said was NOT mandatory for Christians is the tithe to the Church itself.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by frako, posted 08-28-2018 3:04 PM frako has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by frako, posted 08-29-2018 3:19 AM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29529
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 242 of 329 (838822)
08-28-2018 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by frako
08-28-2018 3:04 PM


Re: Robber Barons
I reread the post and just have to emphasize again, I've not said anything about taxes not being mandatory.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by frako, posted 08-28-2018 3:04 PM frako has not yet responded

    
frako
Member
Posts: 2792
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 243 of 329 (838831)
08-29-2018 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by Faith
08-28-2018 3:15 PM


Re: Robber Barons
What I said was NOT mandatory for Christians is the tithe to the Church itself.

A tithe is a 10 % tax on everything, its in the bible since abraham, and it is mandatory, if you read the bible that is, if you just make shit up sure its not.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Faith, posted 08-28-2018 3:15 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by Faith, posted 08-29-2018 11:18 AM frako has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29529
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 244 of 329 (838841)
08-29-2018 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by frako
08-29-2018 3:19 AM


Re: Robber Barons
A tithe is a 10 % tax on everything, its in the bible since abraham, and it is mandatory, if you read the bible that is, if you just make shit up sure its not.

Abraham spontaneously gave a tithe to Melchizedek, but it was not made a commandment until Moses. However, when Jesus came He fulfilled all the Law of Moses so Christians are not under the obligation to tithe. We are nevertheless admonished to give generously and cheerfully. All the New Testament scriptures you quote do not refer to the tithe but to the taxes to be paid to the Roman Empire.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by frako, posted 08-29-2018 3:19 AM frako has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Tangle, posted 08-29-2018 11:30 AM Faith has responded
 Message 247 by ringo, posted 08-29-2018 11:49 AM Faith has responded
 Message 263 by frako, posted 08-29-2018 1:28 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6080
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 245 of 329 (838843)
08-29-2018 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by Faith
08-29-2018 11:18 AM


Re: Robber Barons
So it was theft under Moses then?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Faith, posted 08-29-2018 11:18 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by Faith, posted 08-29-2018 11:41 AM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29529
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 246 of 329 (838844)
08-29-2018 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by Tangle
08-29-2018 11:30 AM


Re: Robber Barons
So it was theft under Moses then?

It was interesting to learn that the tithe included money to help strangers and widows and orphans since I thought there were other provisions made for them, but I still can't regard that as the same thing as socialism. For one thing it supports only those who are truly without any other means of support. It doesn't include able-bodied Jewish men, who would have become slaves to pay off their debts. But I do admit it's made me rethink the general topic here since I don't regard this as theft.

Also caffeine's post about how the Roman Empire did give food to support the poor was another interesting fact I hadn't known.

I did find myself wondering why such a gift to widows and orphans and strangers isn't mentioned for Ruth and Naomi, both of whom were widows and Ruth also a stranger. Ruth gleaned in the fields of Boaz for grain to feed the two of them but nothing is said about a tithe offering for their support. But that's an academic side point at best.

Everything I've read, and yes I know evidence is wanted here and maybe I'll dig some up, but everything I've read and heard about the tithe is that the Israelites gave much more than a tenth, just as the Christians do.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Tangle, posted 08-29-2018 11:30 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by Tangle, posted 08-29-2018 12:38 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15119
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 247 of 329 (838845)
08-29-2018 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by Faith
08-29-2018 11:18 AM


Re: Robber Barons
Faith writes:

Abraham spontaneously gave a tithe to Melchizedek, but it was not made a commandment until Moses.


If God never changes and His law is absolute, it doesn't make much sense that something would "become" mandatory at a certain place and time and then "become" voluntary at another place and time.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Faith, posted 08-29-2018 11:18 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by Faith, posted 08-29-2018 11:53 AM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29529
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 248 of 329 (838846)
08-29-2018 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by ringo
08-29-2018 11:49 AM


Re: Robber Barons
But you are making these things rigid when they are not. God's never changing doesn't mean He doesn't deal with different situations differently, it just means that He can always be counted on to act in accordance with His unchanging principles of righteousness. He's consistent in other words.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by ringo, posted 08-29-2018 11:49 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by ringo, posted 08-29-2018 12:02 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15119
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 249 of 329 (838849)
08-29-2018 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by Faith
08-29-2018 11:53 AM


Re: Robber Barons
Faith writes:

But you are making these things rigid when they are not. God's never changing doesn't mean He doesn't deal with different situations differently....


So you claim but you haven't cited anything to back up that claim. I have pointed out, for example, that the principle both in Elijah's time and in Jesus' time, was to give everything. From each according to his ability to each according to his need.

Edited by ringo, : Spylling.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Faith, posted 08-29-2018 11:53 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by Faith, posted 08-29-2018 12:08 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29529
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 250 of 329 (838851)
08-29-2018 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by ringo
08-29-2018 12:02 PM


Re: Robber Barons
Jesus was teaching a specific young man when he told him to give away everything he owned, that was NOT a principle for everybody. And sorry I guess I missed whatever you said about Elijah.

And besides it makes no sense to equate this teaching with the Communist dictum.

ABE: Perhaps the incident with Ananias and Sapphira will answer your idea that giving away everything was supposed to be a basic principle. When God struck them dead it was for lying about what they were giving, not for the amount they had chosen to give. I think it was Peter who said -- one of the apostles anyway -- it was in their power to give whatever portion they wanted, but claiming they were giving all when they weren't was lying to God and that's why they died. Emphasis: IN THEIR POWER TO GIVE WHATEVER THEY WANTED. Meaning they had a right to the disposition of their property and no obligation to give all of it.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by ringo, posted 08-29-2018 12:02 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by ringo, posted 08-29-2018 12:17 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15119
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 251 of 329 (838853)
08-29-2018 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by Faith
08-29-2018 12:08 PM


Re: Robber Barons
Faith writes:

Jesus was teaching a specific young man when he told him to give away everything he owned, that was NOT a principle for everybody.


Again, so you claim. Back it up. It's a pretty self-serving claim.

Faith writes:

And sorry I guess I missed whatever you said about Elijah.


I only alluded to it but you ought to know the story. Elijah asked the woman for food. She protested that she only had enough for one meal for herself and her son and then they would die. Elijah told her to give it to him anyway. She did, and after that her oil and meal never gave out.

Faith writes:

And besides it makes no sense to equate this teaching with the Communist dictum.


If it's the same message, why not?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Faith, posted 08-29-2018 12:08 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by Faith, posted 08-29-2018 12:21 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29529
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 252 of 329 (838854)
08-29-2018 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by ringo
08-29-2018 12:17 PM


Re: Robber Barons
It's not the same message. It's ludicrous to say it is. (Since when soes "From each according to his ability" imply giving up EVERYTHING?)

There is no principle implied in Elijah's request to the widow, it was a specific test of faith which is what the miracle of the neverending supply was built on.

No theologian says Jesus' advice to the young man was intended as a principle for all, it's always treated as specific to his spiritual condition.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by ringo, posted 08-29-2018 12:17 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by ringo, posted 08-29-2018 12:30 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15119
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 253 of 329 (838857)
08-29-2018 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by Faith
08-29-2018 12:21 PM


Re: Robber Barons
Faith writes:

It's not the same message. It's ludicrous to say it is.
There is no principle implied in Elijah's request to the widow, it was a specific test of faith which is what the miracle of the neverending supply was built on.


You're just denying. You're not putting up any argument or evidence for your claim.

Faith writes:

No theologian says Jesus' advice to the young man was intended as a principle for all, it's always treated as specific to his spiritual condition.


"No theologian" is a pretty heavy-handed claim. What you really mean is no theologian that you will accept. But I have no interest in what theologians say anyway. I only go by the text.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Faith, posted 08-29-2018 12:21 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by Faith, posted 08-29-2018 12:31 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29529
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 254 of 329 (838858)
08-29-2018 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by ringo
08-29-2018 12:30 PM


Re: Robber Barons
All you guys who claim to "go by the text" misread the text.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by ringo, posted 08-29-2018 12:30 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by ringo, posted 08-29-2018 12:34 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15119
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 255 of 329 (838860)
08-29-2018 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by Faith
08-29-2018 12:31 PM


Re: Robber Barons
Faith writes:

All you guys who claim to "go by the text" misread the text.


More empty denial. Can you show how I'm misreading the text? Or is it just that the text doesn't say what you want it to say?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Faith, posted 08-29-2018 12:31 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by Faith, posted 08-29-2018 12:38 PM ringo has responded

  
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