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Author Topic:   Immigrants good for me and you? Bad? How to make a good answer that is accurate?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6080
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 256 of 329 (838863)
08-29-2018 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by Faith
08-29-2018 11:41 AM


Re: Robber Barons
Faith writes:

It was interesting to learn that the tithe included money to help strangers and widows and orphans since I thought there were other provisions made for them, etc

So was the tithe theft under Moses?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by Faith, posted 08-29-2018 11:41 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by Faith, posted 08-29-2018 12:39 PM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29529
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 257 of 329 (838864)
08-29-2018 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by ringo
08-29-2018 12:34 PM


Re: Robber Barons
I gave the example of Ananias and Sapphira to show that there is no principle of giving everything required. You take a specific text and extend it to a principle without any warrant, and you want me to prove that's wrong?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by ringo, posted 08-29-2018 12:34 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by ringo, posted 08-29-2018 1:03 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29529
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 258 of 329 (838865)
08-29-2018 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by Tangle
08-29-2018 12:38 PM


Re: Robber Barons
I thought I clearly said I don't consider it theft.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Tangle, posted 08-29-2018 12:38 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Tangle, posted 08-29-2018 12:43 PM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6080
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 259 of 329 (838868)
08-29-2018 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by Faith
08-29-2018 12:39 PM


Re: Robber Barons
Faith writes:

I thought I clearly said I don't consider it theft.

How come a mandatoy tax is theft when a government does it but not theft when Moses does it? Mandatory was your test.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Faith, posted 08-29-2018 12:39 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by Faith, posted 08-29-2018 12:47 PM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29529
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 260 of 329 (838870)
08-29-2018 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by Tangle
08-29-2018 12:43 PM


Re: Robber Barons
I'm rethinking SOME of the questions here.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Tangle, posted 08-29-2018 12:43 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by Tangle, posted 08-29-2018 12:58 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6080
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 261 of 329 (838872)
08-29-2018 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by Faith
08-29-2018 12:47 PM


Re: Robber Barons
Good luck with that, I'm sure you'll find a loophole somewhere that satisfies you but no-one else.

Best be quick though, you've only got another 48 hours or so.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Faith, posted 08-29-2018 12:47 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15119
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 262 of 329 (838873)
08-29-2018 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by Faith
08-29-2018 12:38 PM


Re: Robber Barons
Faith writes:

I gave the example of Ananias and Sapphira to show that there is no principle of giving everything required.


But Ananias and Sapphira were punished for holding back. How does that support your position?

Faith writes:

You take a specific text and extend it to a principle without any warrant...


I took an example from the Old Testament and two examples from the New Testament to show that it wasn't an isolated idea. Your own example from the New Testament also seems to support what I'm saying.

Faith writes:

...and you want me to prove that's wrong?


I want you to prove that my conclusion from the examples is wrong.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Faith, posted 08-29-2018 12:38 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by Faith, posted 08-29-2018 1:29 PM ringo has responded

  
frako
Member
Posts: 2792
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 263 of 329 (838878)
08-29-2018 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by Faith
08-29-2018 11:18 AM


Re: Robber Barons
You should run for the new pope so the church does not get anything wrong ever again.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Faith, posted 08-29-2018 11:18 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29529
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 264 of 329 (838879)
08-29-2018 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by ringo
08-29-2018 1:03 PM


Re: Robber Barons
No, as I said, Ananias and Saphira were not punished for holding back since they had every right to dispose of their property as they wished, they were punished for lying about it. That is very clear in the text.

What was the other NT example? Neither of those I answered show anything but a specific situation, not a principle.

Id did prove that it is not a principle by the example of Ananias and Saphhira.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by ringo, posted 08-29-2018 1:03 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by ringo, posted 08-29-2018 2:51 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15119
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 265 of 329 (838888)
08-29-2018 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by Faith
08-29-2018 1:29 PM


Re: Robber Barons
Faith writes:

...they were punished for lying about it. That is very clear in the text.


That isn't what it says:
quote:
Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

What they did wrong was lying AND keeping back part of the land.

Faith writes:

What was the other NT example?


1. Jesus telling the rich man to sell what he had and give to the poor.
2. The lady giving all she had while the rich men held back.

And in the Old Testament:
1. Elijah telling the widow to give him all of her food (TELLING her, mind you, despite her protests).
2. Achan, who was punished for holding back some of the spoils from a captured Canaanite city. (I didn't mention that one before.)

These examples are just off the top of my head. There may be more.

Faith writes:

Neither of those I answered show anything but a specific situation, not a principle.


A plethora of examples suggests a principle. Have you given a counter-example at all?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by Faith, posted 08-29-2018 1:29 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by Faith, posted 08-29-2018 3:32 PM ringo has responded
 Message 267 by Faith, posted 08-29-2018 3:36 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29529
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 266 of 329 (838889)
08-29-2018 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by ringo
08-29-2018 2:51 PM


Re: Robber Barons
Acts 5:3-4 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

IF there is any impolication that they were wrong to keep it back it could only be because they'd promised to give it all and then changed their mind or something like that because clearly they had no obligation to give iit all otherwise as the verse above says very clearly.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by ringo, posted 08-29-2018 2:51 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by ringo, posted 08-29-2018 3:50 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29529
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 267 of 329 (838890)
08-29-2018 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by ringo
08-29-2018 2:51 PM


Re: Robber Barons
I answered all your examples except Achan, and he stole the stuff against the clear command not to touch any of it. What does that have to do with a principle of giving all?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by ringo, posted 08-29-2018 2:51 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by ringo, posted 08-29-2018 3:59 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15119
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 268 of 329 (838891)
08-29-2018 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by Faith
08-29-2018 3:32 PM


Re: Robber Barons
Faith writes:

... they had no obligation to give iit all otherwise as the verse above says very clearly.


The verse says nothing of the kind. It says that their violation was lying and holding back, period. You can take your crayon and write in that they would not have been punished if they ha only held back the land, but that isn't what the verse says.

What the whole incident illustrates is that the early Church considered giving everything to be an important principle. Maybe because of what Jesus said to the rich man, or maybe because it was an important principle going back to Old Testament times.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Faith, posted 08-29-2018 3:32 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15119
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 269 of 329 (838892)
08-29-2018 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by Faith
08-29-2018 3:36 PM


Re: Robber Barons
Faith writes:

I answered all your examples...


All you did was claim that they were isolated examples. How many examples do you need before they're not isolated any more?

Faith writes:

... except Achan, and he stole the stuff against the clear command not to touch any of it. What does that have to do with a principle of giving all?


He was told to give it all and he didn't. How much plainer could it get?

Achan stole from the community and the community is equated with God. Remember, the tithe belongs to God but is used by the community. Similarly, the spoils of war belong to God but are used by the community. God owns the cattle on a thousand hills but they are used by the community.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by Faith, posted 08-29-2018 3:36 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5583
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 270 of 329 (838902)
08-30-2018 12:56 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by Faith
08-24-2018 12:11 PM


Re: Conservative Cal Thomas (on a conservative site townhall.com) said this:
No. Public wqrks is a function of every responsible government, it is not socialism. No. Public works is for the nation itself, socialism takes from some to give to others.

Okay, lets follow the logic. Taxes are collected without your consent from the private sector in order to fund various public programs, like fire, police, public works, courts, libraries, public transportation, etc. How do you not understand that is, on the most basic level, socialism?


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Faith, posted 08-24-2018 12:11 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by Faith, posted 08-30-2018 1:07 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

    
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