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Author Topic:   Immigrants good for me and you? Bad? How to make a good answer that is accurate?
Faith
Member
Posts: 30028
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 271 of 338 (838903)
08-30-2018 1:07 AM
Reply to: Message 270 by Hyroglyphx
08-30-2018 12:56 AM


Re: Conservative Cal Thomas (on a conservative site townhall.com) said this:
Here's a Wikipedia article on welfare programs. These things are socialism. None of those things you list are mentioned.

My definition is something like this: Taxes for running the government, public works, infrastructure, etc, are like a fee we pay for those services. Welfare, on the other hand, goes to individuals who perform no services and earn none of it. That's socialism.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-30-2018 12:56 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by JonF, posted 08-30-2018 9:25 AM Faith has responded
 Message 306 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-03-2018 12:58 AM Faith has responded

    
JonF
Member
Posts: 4251
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 272 of 338 (838905)
08-30-2018 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by Faith
08-30-2018 1:07 AM


Re: Conservative Cal Thomas (on a conservative site townhall.com) said this:
Most welfare recipients work. Welfare fraud is very rare.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Faith, posted 08-30-2018 1:07 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by Faith, posted 08-30-2018 10:36 AM JonF has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30028
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 273 of 338 (838906)
08-30-2018 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 272 by JonF
08-30-2018 9:25 AM


Socialism
Most welfare recipients work. Welfare fraud is very rare.

I can't dispute or verify your facts, but nevertheless the principle of welfare is that they are given money they didn't earn, whether they earn other money or not. It's a matter of definition.

And I'm changing my mind about this anyway thanks to the information about the tithe in ancient Israel going to the support of widows, orphans and strangers, and about the Roman Empire's giving of food to the poor. I'm also for the uses Tangle said the UK makes of their welfare money, education, health care etc.

The main problem with all of this is that there is far more need than there is money to support it, which is the economic argument from the conservative side. Ben Shapiro says for instance that even in the countries most often commended for their socialist programs, such as Norway, there are economic problems that aren't usually mentioned. I'm not in a position to argue this point, I'm just including it as necessary information. If the cause of our trillions of debt is the funding of such programs, they have to be declared a monumental failure, don't they?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by JonF, posted 08-30-2018 9:25 AM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by jar, posted 08-30-2018 11:27 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 275 by ringo, posted 08-30-2018 11:41 AM Faith has responded
 Message 278 by JonF, posted 08-30-2018 12:11 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


(1)
Message 274 of 338 (838909)
08-30-2018 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 273 by Faith
08-30-2018 10:36 AM


Re: Socialism
Faith writes:

If the cause of our trillions of debt is the funding of such programs, they have to be declared a monumental failure, don't they?

The cause of our trillions in debt are mainly really really really stupid military and political decisions.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios † † My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by Faith, posted 08-30-2018 10:36 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15577
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 275 of 338 (838910)
08-30-2018 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 273 by Faith
08-30-2018 10:36 AM


Re: Socialism
Faith writes:

The main problem with all of this is that there is far more need than there is money to support it, which is the economic argument from the conservative side.


So the conservative solution is to do less to meet those needs?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by Faith, posted 08-30-2018 10:36 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by Faith, posted 08-30-2018 11:45 AM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30028
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 276 of 338 (838911)
08-30-2018 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by ringo
08-30-2018 11:41 AM


Re: Socialism
No, the solution must be that we keep racking up the debt until we're owned and governed by Communist China. Obviously.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by ringo, posted 08-30-2018 11:41 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by ringo, posted 08-30-2018 11:53 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 279 by JonF, posted 08-30-2018 12:15 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15577
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 277 of 338 (838912)
08-30-2018 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by Faith
08-30-2018 11:45 AM


Re: Socialism
Faith writes:

No, the solution must be that we keep racking up the debt until we're owned and governed by Communist China. Obviously.


The debt is not caused by welfare programs.

The situation you have is a handful of people sitting on mountains of wealth while many others are homeless, hungry and sick. Charity does some good but it doesn't solve the problem.

Homelessness, hunger and sickness all detract from productivity. Taking care of the less fortunate is a good investment (not to mention being the right thing to do). It's not just shameful that some Christians oppose welfare programs, it's downright foolish.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Faith, posted 08-30-2018 11:45 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 4251
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 278 of 338 (838913)
08-30-2018 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by Faith
08-30-2018 10:36 AM


Re: Socialism
There's plenty of money if the 1Č paid their share. They might have to forego their seventh house and third yacht, poor dears.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by Faith, posted 08-30-2018 10:36 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 4251
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


(3)
Message 279 of 338 (838914)
08-30-2018 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by Faith
08-30-2018 11:45 AM


Re: Socialism
No, the solution must be that we keep racking up the debt until we're owned and governed by Communist China.

That definitely is what the Republicans are doing, to pay for big tax cuts for the rich. Remember when a Democrat was president and the Republicans pretended they thought deficits matter?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Faith, posted 08-30-2018 11:45 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by Faith, posted 08-30-2018 2:00 PM JonF has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30028
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


(1)
Message 280 of 338 (838916)
08-30-2018 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by JonF
08-30-2018 12:15 PM


Re: Socialism
Earlier I looked up what level of income is classed in the upper 1% category and was surprised. I was expecting huge incomes in the upper multiple millions at least and find that the 1% level starts at $386 thousand something and that the average is only $1.15 million. IIRC. While that is great riches to someone like me, it wouldn't just casually buy you seven houses and three yachts as you were claiming. It doesn't seem like enough to class them as a wealthy class who should be taxed to the bone to support everybody else, that is, if there is any real desire to promote freedom in this nation so that there CAN be a class of people who have the ability or the good fortune to make a lot of money without being punished for it.

To me it does look more like what the Right says the Left is about: envy of the rich rather than any real concern for the poor. You can counter that with the Left's view that the Right is fueled by greed, but both envy and greed are sins, one side isn't more righteous than the other if those terms are right at all. I think most wealth is earned by upright people myself, not greedy hoarders at all.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by JonF, posted 08-30-2018 12:15 PM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by JonF, posted 08-30-2018 2:53 PM Faith has responded
 Message 282 by jar, posted 08-30-2018 3:02 PM Faith has responded
 Message 283 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 08-30-2018 3:10 PM Faith has responded

    
JonF
Member
Posts: 4251
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 281 of 338 (838920)
08-30-2018 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by Faith
08-30-2018 2:00 PM


Re: Socialism
I would like to be rich, but my politics and ideals aren't driven by envy.

Most liberals truly do believe in giving a helping hand to those in need.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Faith, posted 08-30-2018 2:00 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by Faith, posted 08-30-2018 4:07 PM JonF has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 282 of 338 (838921)
08-30-2018 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by Faith
08-30-2018 2:00 PM


Re: Socialism
Faith writes:

To me it does look more like what the Right says the Left is about: envy of the rich rather than any real concern for the poor.

And what evidence supports such an assertion?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios † † My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Faith, posted 08-30-2018 2:00 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by Faith, posted 08-30-2018 4:26 PM jar has responded

  
AnswersInGenitals
Member
Posts: 497
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 283 of 338 (838923)
08-30-2018 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by Faith
08-30-2018 2:00 PM


Income =/= wealth!!!
Poor, poor Faith. So easily confused by even the simplest of concepts. Income is not the same as wealth! My wealth is > 40 times my annual income (primarily because i own a fully paid off home in Silicon Valley that I bought 35 years ago - last year its increase in value (wealth) was 3 times my income that year. I could probably sell this house and buy seven houses in one of the s**thole (i. e., red) states.) Jeff Bezoís income might well be below that $386K you mention. Or maybe you know this and thatís why you didnít bother to link to your source. Itís actually possible for a person to have a multi $million income and negative wealth, if for example, their indebtedness (liabilities) exceeds their assets.

Also, and very importantly, many of the super wealth have very low income because they direct their income to personal corporations that purchase all their goodies for them. They do this, of course, as a tax avoidance maneuver. Thatís why the Republicanís recent tax law changed the tax bracket on ďpass throughĒ income, again to aid their wealth supporters avoid more taxes.

Did you know that the treasury department is having to sell over 1 $trillion in bonds each year for the next several years to pay for the countryís deficits? One forth of that is just to pay the interest on outstanding debt. With the increasing fed interest rate and the rapidly growing debt (growing much faster than the Republicanís fantasy projections) interest payments alone will grow to 1 $trillion by 2030, just about the time you start wishing you were a Democrat. Iím also following your lead in not citing sources, but you can check it out on any fake news site.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Faith, posted 08-30-2018 2:00 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by Faith, posted 08-30-2018 4:19 PM AnswersInGenitals has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30028
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 284 of 338 (838928)
08-30-2018 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by JonF
08-30-2018 2:53 PM


Re: Socialism
Most liberals truly do believe in giving a helping hand to those in need.

Which would be fine if they didn't think other people should pay for it.

And most conservatives ALSO truly do believe in giving a helping hand to those in need, and they show it with their actual giving which is always a lot more than the Left gives.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by JonF, posted 08-30-2018 2:53 PM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by JonF, posted 08-30-2018 4:24 PM Faith has responded
 Message 288 by Taq, posted 08-30-2018 4:37 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30028
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 285 of 338 (838929)
08-30-2018 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by AnswersInGenitals
08-30-2018 3:10 PM


Re: Income =/= wealth!!!
It's true I have little knowledge of things economic, but I have no motive for not linking something or other except it's work once I've left the site behind, and I don't grasp it all anyway. I'm happy to be educated about these things but so far the difference doesn't really make a difference to me. A huge income is wealth by most ordinary thinking, but feel free to make whatever relevant points you'd like to make, though most of what you already said went over my head as it is.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 08-30-2018 3:10 PM AnswersInGenitals has not yet responded

    
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