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Author Topic:   Immigrants good for me and you? Bad? How to make a good answer that is accurate?
JonF
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Posts: 4180
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 286 of 338 (838930)
08-30-2018 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 284 by Faith
08-30-2018 4:07 PM


Re: Socialism
And most conservatives ALSO truly do believe in giving a helping hand to those in need, and they show it with their actual giving which is always a lot more than the Left gives.

You made that up. Let's see the statistics.

(Obviously you won't produce them.)

However, all private giving is dwarfed by the needs. And note that the GOP tax bill made it much less attractive to deduct charitable donations, which transfers money from charity to the government.

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by Faith, posted 08-30-2018 4:07 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 29551
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 287 of 338 (838931)
08-30-2018 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by jar
08-30-2018 3:02 PM


Re: Socialism
I get the impression of envy from the way you all talk about the rich as if they had no right to be rich and try to protect their wealth. .The way people talk about the wealthy is very grabby-greedy-disdainful-envious etc.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by jar, posted 08-30-2018 3:02 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by frako, posted 08-30-2018 5:02 PM Faith has responded
 Message 295 by JonF, posted 08-30-2018 5:23 PM Faith has responded
 Message 301 by jar, posted 08-30-2018 7:11 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7557
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 288 of 338 (838932)
08-30-2018 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 284 by Faith
08-30-2018 4:07 PM


Re: Socialism
Faith writes:

Which would be fine if they didn't think other people should pay for it.

And most conservatives ALSO truly do believe in giving a helping hand to those in need, and they show it with their actual giving which is always a lot more than the Left gives.

You may want to read up on your history, especially the Great Depression and President Hoover. He adopted the same position you are taking, and the result was widespread homelessness and starvation. The guy who replaced him was FDR, and he brought in the New Deal which actually did solve the crisis of the Great Depression. The New Deal was socialism, and it worked.


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Faith
Member
Posts: 29551
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


(1)
Message 289 of 338 (838933)
08-30-2018 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by JonF
08-30-2018 4:24 PM


Re: Socialism
It's something I've heard for years that conservatives and Christians give more than liberals do. But here's an article on the subject:

Bleeding Heart Tightwads:

This holiday season is a time to examine who’s been naughty and who’s been nice, but I’m unhappy with my findings. The problem is this: We liberals are personally stingy.

Liberals show tremendous compassion in pushing for generous government spending to help the neediest people at home and abroad. Yet when it comes to individual contributions to charitable causes, liberals are cheapskates.

Arthur Brooks, the author of a book on donors to charity, “Who Really Cares,” cites data that households headed by conservatives give 30 percent more to charity than households headed by liberals. A study by Google found an even greater disproportion: average annual contributions reported by conservatives were almost double those of liberals.

Other research has reached similar conclusions. The “generosity index” from the Catalogue for Philanthropy typically finds that red states are the most likely to give to nonprofits, while Northeastern states are least likely to do so.

As he points out later in the article, much of this comes from the fact that conservatives are more religious, so religion is the primary motivator, and this is shown in the fact that religious liberals also tend to give more than other liberals.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith
Member
Posts: 29551
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 290 of 338 (838934)
08-30-2018 4:53 PM


So what is needed is a way to

take care of the poor, improve health care etc
stimulate the poor to get unpoor
while not killing the incentives to create wealth, as well as invention and generosity by the wealthy
and paying down the deficit.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 6091
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 291 of 338 (838935)
08-30-2018 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by Faith
08-30-2018 4:53 PM


Which is exactly what a liberal democracy tries to do.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
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frako
Member
Posts: 2792
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 292 of 338 (838936)
08-30-2018 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by Faith
08-30-2018 4:26 PM


Re: Socialism
Well duh, you dont have billions of dollars if you think you have enough. But socialism is good for the rich too. If money is not returned back to the botom of the wealth pyramid sooner or later the botom runs out of money they cant buy anything those above them sell so the rich go bankrupt. The other option is to print more money and giving it to the poor, but that devalues the currency meaning the rich loose out again. Or you can tax the rich and return it to the botom of the pyramid.

Sure you could make a decent wage mandatory and return the money to the bottom that way. Then you could have the same taxes across the board, and cut socialist programs, and have a stable economy. But good luck trying to get the wealthy to give up some of their profits, on wages for the working class, they prefer the system you have now., where the collective whole chips in for those bottom feeders, and not the ones exploiting them.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Faith, posted 08-30-2018 4:26 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 7557
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 293 of 338 (838937)
08-30-2018 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by Faith
08-30-2018 4:53 PM


Faith writes:

So what is needed is a way to
take care of the poor, improve health care etc
stimulate the poor to get unpoor
while not killing the incentives to create wealth, as well as invention and generosity by the wealthy
and paying down the deficit.

Pretty much. I would put it more in terms of making sure jobs are supplying a living wage so that work is rewarded. We also need to look at history and realize that the economy worsens when wealth is concentrated into the hands of a few.

We should also realize that regulated capitalism works great in some markets, but not in all markets, especially those where supply and demand are way out of whack (e.g. health care).

It is also worth mentioning that generosity has never worked. The wealthy could donate the money to the US Government right now with the purpose of paying down the debt, but they aren't doing it. This is during a time of near record low tax rates on the wealthiest individuals. I'm not saying that we should punish the rich. Rather, people are rich because of not rich people working hard and participating in that economy. It's a bit like a quarterback claiming he won the game single-handedly while ignoring the contributions of the rest of the team.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by Faith, posted 08-30-2018 4:53 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 29551
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 294 of 338 (838939)
08-30-2018 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by frako
08-30-2018 5:02 PM


Re: Socialism
If you'd refrain from the snark and sneer I'm all ears for any really reasonable propositions for correcting all the problems I just listed above. Reasonable includes recognizing that people are people, including the rich, and it would improve your chances of getting your solution recognized if you treated them kindly.
This message is a reply to:
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JonF
Member
Posts: 4180
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 295 of 338 (838940)
08-30-2018 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by Faith
08-30-2018 4:26 PM


Re: Socialism
Another one you made up.

And, of course, no attempt to support your claim that Right-wingers give more. As ex.

These conversations would go much better if you would try to make claims that have at least a tenuous connection to reality.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Faith, posted 08-30-2018 4:26 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by Faith, posted 08-30-2018 5:25 PM JonF has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29551
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 296 of 338 (838941)
08-30-2018 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by Taq
08-30-2018 5:07 PM


Seems to me you've raised more problems than you answered.

So how would you create more jobs that pay better? Do you understand why they don't pay well enough?

How does the economy worsen when wealth is in the hands of the few? And what do you mean by "few?" And how would you rectify this in a way that didn't discourage people from growing wealth?

As I understand it supply and demand are way out of whack in the health care arena because of government's involvement in it. But make your case for where regulated capitalism works and where it doesn't.

Why do you suppose the wealthy AREN'T contributing to bringing down the deficit? Maybe because it's a bottomless pit and nothing they gave to the project would work? Any solutions to how to make it work?

I also think you need to lose this idea that the rich are rich at the expense of the poor. Marx liked that one but I don't think it holds water.


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Faith
Member
Posts: 29551
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 297 of 338 (838942)
08-30-2018 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by JonF
08-30-2018 5:23 PM


Re: Socialism
Thought I did show that rightwingers give more. Did you miss it?

As for the envy, I said it was my personal assessment of the way people talk.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by JonF, posted 08-30-2018 5:23 PM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by JonF, posted 08-30-2018 6:10 PM Faith has acknowledged this reply

    
frako
Member
Posts: 2792
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 298 of 338 (838943)
08-30-2018 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by Faith
08-30-2018 4:53 PM


take care of the poor

Minimum personal income.

improve health care

medicare for all would be the best choice for america right now. Socialist healthcare programs always outdo pay to play ones.

Given that profit motive lies in long term care the whole healthcare program from research to care would be better of without a profit motive. if you want to improve it further afterwards.

stimulate the poor to get unpoor

Access to free education is the best way to get about doing that.

while not killing the incentives to create wealth

Yea because if a rich person sees a poor man getting free helathcare he will loose al motive to gather piles and piles of money on his bank account.

as well as invention

the reason communist systems are lacking in innovations are because in some cases innovation was/is actively discouraged so people would have jobs.

and generosity by the wealthy, and paying down the deficit.

Gewt rid of the trump tax cuts for a starter. Stop throwing more then the next 13 countries combined in to the military would help as welll. As for the generosity of the rich, the story of Jesus and the old woman with 2 dimes comes to mind.

Edited by frako, : No reason given.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by Faith, posted 08-30-2018 4:53 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
JonF
Member
Posts: 4180
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 299 of 338 (838944)
08-30-2018 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by Faith
08-30-2018 5:24 PM


I would increase taxes on the rich and decrease taxes significantly for others. That creates demand, which creates jobs. I don't know what to do about wages. The economy worsens when the rich have all the money because they can't create the demand that the far more numerous 99% can.

Healthcare is an industry in which free market doesn't work. Patients don't have the choices a free market requires. Are you going to research the care and cost of all services provided by doctors and hospitals around you? No, and nobody else is. In the absence of true competition prices rise because doctors and hospitals want as much revenue as they can get. Medicare for all evokes the famous quote "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others." It's not perfect but it's better than anything else, and it works pretty well in all the other developed countries. Note that we do not have the best health care in the world except in a very few categories.

The wealthy aren't contributing to fixing the deficit because there's nothing in it for them. That's how people work. My solution is taxation.

In many ways the rich are wealthy at the expense of the poor. E.g. Tremendous tax cuts for the rich followed by huge cuts in aid for the poor. (The latter haven't happened but the Republicans explicitly intend them).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by Faith, posted 08-30-2018 5:24 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 303 by Faith, posted 08-31-2018 1:18 AM JonF has responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 4180
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 300 of 338 (838945)
08-30-2018 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by Faith
08-30-2018 5:25 PM


Re: Socialism
Yes, I missed it. Those do look pretty convincing.
This message is a reply to:
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