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Author Topic:   The TRVE history of the Flood...
Faith
Member
Posts: 24398
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 301 of 517 (805647)
04-19-2017 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 300 by jar
04-19-2017 6:47 PM


Re: more just plain not true assertions
Your utterly ridiculous misreading of the Bible does not give you the right to declare my view of it false. I have two millennia of the best Bible exegetes behind me. You are deluded by your own silly ego that likes to lord it over true believers.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by jar, posted 04-19-2017 6:47 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 305 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2017 7:22 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 321 by ringo, posted 04-20-2017 11:55 AM Faith has responded

    
kbertsche
Member
Posts: 1359
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007
Member Rating: 4.2


(5)
Message 302 of 517 (805648)
04-19-2017 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by Faith
04-19-2017 1:30 PM


Re: the idea of more than one biblical flood is what's silly, AND the date of course
Faith writes:


The Bible doesn't say much at all to allow us to conclude just how quiet it was or wasn't. We have a lot of leeway for speculating based on our own experience of the physical world how the little it says fits with observations of the condition of the earth.


As you note, the Bible gives very few details of the effects of Noah's Flood. There is no mention of rock strata laid down, canyons carved, etc.

In short, none of modern "Flood Geology" is biblical; it is all extra-biblical speculation.

The "Young earth" view goes back to antiquity, but "flood geology" does not. "Flood geology" only dates back a century or so, to George McReady Price, a non-geologist who invented it to support Ellen G. White. (See "The Creationists" by Ronald Numbers for more historical details on this.)

Besides being unbiblical, "Flood geology" is opposed by most Christian professional geologists. See, for example the Affiliation of Christian Geologists and Solid Rock Lectures.

I seriously considered Flood Geology views when I was younger. But when I took up spelunking as a hobby in high school and college, I realized that Flood Geology simply made no sense and was not credible. A single flood would have had to lay down hundreds to thousands of feet of limestone, then allow it to harden, then carve cave channels into it, then allow the water to drain, then form stalactites and stalagmites in an accelerated manner (they have layers, similar to tree rings). All of this within one year, due to a single flood?!? It's a ridiculous scenario!


"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." Albert Einstein

I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. Erwin Schroedinger


This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Faith, posted 04-19-2017 1:30 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 303 by Faith, posted 04-19-2017 7:04 PM kbertsche has responded
 Message 306 by Faith, posted 04-19-2017 7:26 PM kbertsche has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 24398
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 303 of 517 (805649)
04-19-2017 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 302 by kbertsche
04-19-2017 6:51 PM


Re: the idea of more than one biblical flood is what's silly, AND the date of course
Flood Geology makes tons of sense and you are just another deceived Christian. Sorry, but I understand what I'm talking about and the arguments here are nothing but bias. I can hardly believe anyone could look at the strata and not KNOW that millions of years of living things in some stage of evolution is an utterly STUPID interpretation of a slab of rock, but that a worldwide Flood explains it to perfection. Evolution between the creatures represented in the fossil record taking millions of years is stupid, time periods is stupid, and evolution contradicts the Bible too.

But thanks SO much for your thoughtful input.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by kbertsche, posted 04-19-2017 6:51 PM kbertsche has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 307 by kbertsche, posted 04-20-2017 12:54 AM Faith has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9431
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 304 of 517 (805650)
04-19-2017 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by Faith
04-19-2017 6:39 PM


Re: On "opinions"
To the extent that it is historical then I would assume its dates are useful for tracking historical events.

Exactly. But you are insisting on more than that. Your claim is that since the Bible is accurate when referring to historical events, we should extend that to events that are only described in the Bible.

The difference cannot be that some folks insist that the Bible is accurate, while nobody does the same thing for the Illiad or Beowulf. The real point here is that you have not given us any reason to distinguish the way the Bible refers to kings and events we know about and the way that the Illiad does.

In short, just referencing something that has happened does not extend any truth to the remaining text. Otherwise we might just get news from episodes of Saturday Night Live.

Do you have any better arguments?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by Faith, posted 04-19-2017 6:39 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9431
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 305 of 517 (805651)
04-19-2017 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 301 by Faith
04-19-2017 6:51 PM


Re: more just plain not true assertions
I have two millennia of the best Bible exegetes behind me.

Surely the idea that the Bible carved the Grand Canyon is much younger than that. In fact, the idea may not be much younger than either of us!


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by Faith, posted 04-19-2017 6:51 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 24398
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 306 of 517 (805652)
04-19-2017 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 302 by kbertsche
04-19-2017 6:51 PM


Re: the idea of more than one biblical flood is what's silly, AND the date of course
A single flood would have had to lay down hundreds to thousands of feet of limestone,

And it did.

then allow it to harden,

No it didn't have to harden. Limestone is easily dissolved and that would have happened soon after its deposition. Karsts and caves would have formed almost immediately.

then carve cave channels into it,

See above.

then allow the water to drain,

Why should that take a long time?

then form stalactites and stalagmites in an accelerated manner

It has been demonstrated that these things form very rapidly.

(they have layers, similar to tree rings). All of this within one year, due to a single flood?!? It's a ridiculous scenario!

YOUR scenario is ridiculous. The last stages didn't need to happen within the Flood year, why would they? They form a lot faster than you imagine but all they'd need is a few years at most. I doubt you were going spelunking 4200 years ago.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by kbertsche, posted 04-19-2017 6:51 PM kbertsche has not yet responded

    
kbertsche
Member
Posts: 1359
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007
Member Rating: 4.2


(2)
Message 307 of 517 (805655)
04-20-2017 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 303 by Faith
04-19-2017 7:04 PM


Re: the idea of more than one biblical flood is what's silly, AND the date of course
Faith writes:

I can hardly believe anyone could look at the strata and not KNOW that millions of years of living things in some stage of evolution is an utterly STUPID interpretation of a slab of rock, but that a worldwide Flood explains it to perfection.


God's ways are often counter-intuitive. This is true in His dealings with man, His way of salvation, and in the way He operates His creation. When we think we just KNOW something by intuition rather than by careful study, we need to catch ourselves and force ourselves to do a careful study of the matter.

"Flood Geology" seems intuitively reasonable at first glance. But when one starts to study the details, it quickly collapses.

Regarding the Grand Canyon, I highly recommend the recent book, The Grand Canyon, Monument to an Ancient Earth: Can Noah's Flood Explain the Grand Canyon?. A number of the authors are friends of mine, involved in either the Affiliation of Christian Geologists or in Solid Rock Lectures.

Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.


"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." Albert Einstein

I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. Erwin Schroedinger


This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by Faith, posted 04-19-2017 7:04 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 308 by Faith, posted 04-20-2017 3:09 AM kbertsche has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 24398
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 308 of 517 (805669)
04-20-2017 3:09 AM
Reply to: Message 307 by kbertsche
04-20-2017 12:54 AM


Re: the idea of more than one biblical flood is what's silly, AND the date of course
Faith writes:
I can hardly believe anyone could look at the strata and not KNOW that millions of years of living things in some stage of evolution is an utterly STUPID interpretation of a slab of rock, but that a worldwide Flood explains it to perfection.

God's ways are often counter-intuitive. This is true in His dealings with man, His way of salvation, and in the way He operates His creation. When we think we just KNOW something by intuition rather than by careful study, we need to catch ourselves and force ourselves to do a careful study of the matter.

There is nothing intuitive about my assessment of the OE interpretaion of the strata. Don't confuse my simple statement of KNOWING IT'S STUPID with relying on intuition, what I mean is that when you think it through it's utterly absurd. Believe me I've thought it through over and over.

What's intuitive and unwarranted is your throwing out the whole Flood explanation based on your ridiculous impression of how long it would take to form limestone caves, acquired from spelunking. You come along with that ignorant idea and lay it on me as if it gives you some sort of scientific authority over Flood creationists.

"Flood Geology" seems intuitively reasonable at first glance. But when one starts to study the details, it quickly collapses.

Maybe when YOU apply your shallow intuition to studying the details, it collapses for you, but that's a judgment on you, not the theory. I've BEEN studying the details of how the Flood explains the strata for years and years -- not "Flood Geology" as some kind of doctrine set in concrete, but the Flood as the obvious explanation when you think through all the geological facts.

I've got the book you recommend. I've also got two other books on the Grand Canyon that are much much better.

Think through the strata, there is no way they were ever time periods that lasted millions of years in a sequence that covered hundreds of millions of years. Their physical form denies it, their fossil contents deny it.

Regarding the Grand Canyon, I highly recommend the recent book, The Grand Canyon, Monument to an Ancient Earth: Can Noah's Flood Explain the Grand Canyon?. A number of the authors are friends of mine, involved in either the Affiliation of Christian Geologists or in Solid Rock Lectures.

Pathetic.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 307 by kbertsche, posted 04-20-2017 12:54 AM kbertsche has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 322 by kbertsche, posted 04-20-2017 1:40 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 24398
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 309 of 517 (805681)
04-20-2017 6:50 AM


Two Evidences For the Flood and Against the OE/ToE
Walther's Law itself is such an evidence, because it shows that the layers accumulate one on top of another in a relatively short period of time, as sea level rises, really just about simultaneously. Experiments done in sedimentology by Guy Berthault show the accumulation of layers simultaneously in the flume, one accumulating on top of another. As a model of how the strata were laid down it is strong evidence that 1) The strata formed a lot more rapidly than is normally thought; 2) Their fossil contents would also have been deposited rapidly and not in some time-defined order, which pretty much blows the whole ToE scenario.

Then I was pondering the fact that trilobites appear in the Geologic Time Scale over a huge range of time periods, from the Cambrian through the Silurian and Devonian and Carboniferous, and even the Permian, relatively unchanged. Varied yes, but all clearly trilobites with basically identical morphology.

That led me to coelacanths which also show up in fossil form over quite a long period in the Geo Time Scale, from Devonian through Tertiary, and then surprised everybody by also turning up living in this world, all of them varying only very slightly from one to another, the same kind of situation as the trilobites. There are probably other similar examples, of fossils that appear in a large range of "time periods" showing hardly any morphological/genetic changes. Those called "living fossils" seem to follow the same pattern.

This SHOULD raise the question why it is assumed that of two entirely different creatures appearing in the Geo Column one on top of the other that the upper evolved from the lower, no matter how much morphological difference would have to evolve for that to be true, such as mammals from reptiles, of course with nary a transitional to further the case (of course you'd need dozens of transitionals but I digress). And yet there go the trilobites and the coelacanths up the column from time period to time period remaining recognizably themselves without a hint of becoming anything other than a trilobite or a coelacanth.

Yes I know this is rationalized, it's just a "slow evolving" animal. Sure, with the ToE you can just define away any obvious problems. The fact that some creatures are thought to have made gigantic evolutionary jumps based only on their brief appearance in the geologic record should reasonably raise the question why others stay the same through time period after time period for hundreds of millions of years, with only the minor changes we see all the time in nature, otherwise known as microevolution.

But this question is ignored by believers in the OE/ToE, they can ignore anything they can figure out how to rationalize away. So in this case they are rationalizing away the fact that those fossils that do persist over many time periods show hardly any changes, while those that are limited to shorter periods are assumed to have evolved dramatically into the next completely different kind of creature. Gosh, shouldn't that raise a doubt or two?. Naa, reality simply doesn't exist if it contradicts the OE/ToE.

The fact that reptiles don't climb the evolutionary ladder as high as trilobites and coelacanths do should raise the possibility that if they did, if reptiles showed up in six or seven time periods up the time scale in other words, they would probably look very much alike with minor variations, just as the trilobites and coelacanths do.

But anything like this that actively questions the OE/ToE is a question they don't have to face because golly gosh, things seem to have gotten themselves so nicely sorted to fit the OE/ToE. (Ignoring here that Walther's Law suggests there is no such nice order, it's all an illustion) So we can just assume reptiles evolved into mammals just because mammals are above them in the column and the theory says that's what happened.

Thus the ToE is one huge deception full of ad hoc rationalizations like this but believers simply will not even consider such obvious problems with their beloved theory.

How nice it would be if just one committed evo saw the truth for a change. I won't hold my breath.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 310 by PaulK, posted 04-20-2017 7:19 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 311 by Pressie, posted 04-20-2017 7:23 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 327 by caffeine, posted 04-20-2017 3:58 PM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12563
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 310 of 517 (805684)
04-20-2017 7:19 AM
Reply to: Message 309 by Faith
04-20-2017 6:50 AM


Re: Two Evidences For the Flood and Against the OE/ToE
quote:

Walther's Law itself is such an evidence, because it shows that the layers accumulate one on top of another in a relatively short period of time, as sea level rises, really just about simultaneously.

No, it does not. Walther's law is about how deposition varies with environment. It does not say anything about short times and your Flood is a radically different environment from the slow changes in sea level along the coastline, typically envisaged.

quote:

Then I was pondering the fact that trilobites appear in the Geologic Time Scale over a huge range of time periods, from the Cambrian through the Silurian and Devonian and Carboniferous, and even the Permian, relatively unchanged.

In fact there is quite considerable change over time. And how do you account for that fact ?

quote:

That led me to coelacanths which also show up in fossil form over quite a long period in the Geo Time Scale, from Devonian through Tertiary, and then surprised everybody by also turning up living in this world, all of them varying only very slightly from one to another, the same kind of situation as the trilobites

Modern coelacanths are different enough from fossil specimens to be classified as a different genus. And they live in the relatively stable environment of the deep seas, so slow change is not a great surprise.

So really these two pieces of evidence seem to favour an old Earth and no Flood.

quote:

But anything like this that actively questions the OE/ToE is a question they don't have to face because golly gosh, things seem to have gotten themselves so nicely sorted to fit the OE/ToE. (Ignoring here that Walther's Law suggests there is no such nice order, it's all an illustion) So we can just assume reptiles evolved into mammals just because mammals are above them in the column and the theory says that's what happened.

So you misunderstand Walther's Law and ignore the evidence for the reptile-mammal transition. But I guess that you don't like us seeing that truth at all.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by Faith, posted 04-20-2017 6:50 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1561
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 311 of 517 (805685)
04-20-2017 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 309 by Faith
04-20-2017 6:50 AM


Re: Two Evidences For the Flood and Against the OE/ToE
Faith writes:

Walther's Law itself is such an evidence, because it shows that the layers accumulate one on top of another in a relatively short period of time, as sea level rises, really just about simultaneously.

Could you explain this to me, Faith? Could you specifically reference the Dwyka Group and the Ecca Group and the relevance of Walther's Law to those groups?

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by Faith, posted 04-20-2017 6:50 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12427
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 312 of 517 (805687)
04-20-2017 7:47 AM


Moving This Thread
Because discussion is not really focusing on Bible-based arguments for the flood, I'm moving this thread back to the Geology and the Great Flood forum. This is consistent the Coyote's (the originator) original intent as expressed in Message 3. He originally intended the thread as an opportunity for DavidJay to express his views, but they haven't gained any traction in the discussion, and he has proved to be a less active participant than Faith.

Bible-based arguments for dates and events should be fine as long as corroborating real-world evidence is also included.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

Replies to this message:
 Message 314 by Davidjay, posted 04-20-2017 9:14 AM Admin has acknowledged this reply

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12427
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 313 of 517 (805688)
04-20-2017 7:47 AM


Thread Moved from Bible Study Forum
Thread moved here from the Bible Study forum.
    
Davidjay
Member
Posts: 366
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 314 of 517 (805702)
04-20-2017 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 312 by Admin
04-20-2017 7:47 AM


Re: Moving This Thread
Facts are facts no matter what area they are discussed in.

Biblically and geologically is the exact same thing.

The silly doctrine of evolution and samll changes over billions and billions of years is ludicrous to say the least...... so let me propose a NEW TOPIC, as I love defeating not to bright evolutionary ideas.

Continental Drift, by a few inches per year or by a division of the Earths crust after the WORLDWIDE FLOOD.

Its diffcult to get a proposed thread accepted but I shall try again.

This thread is confirmed and proven so lets move on to another concept.... another verification geologically.

For remember, all things are by DESIGN, even geology, not just human bodies, and not just speeds and chemistry and physics, and distances. Geography is by design, so lets discuss it, and I shall show it, and evolutionists can complain about it because all they have is inch by inch theory over millions and billions of years.


.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.

.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 312 by Admin, posted 04-20-2017 7:47 AM Admin has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 315 by Davidjay, posted 04-20-2017 9:17 AM Davidjay has not yet responded
 Message 316 by Coyote, posted 04-20-2017 9:50 AM Davidjay has responded

    
Davidjay
Member
Posts: 366
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 315 of 517 (805703)
04-20-2017 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 314 by Davidjay
04-20-2017 9:14 AM


Re: Moving This Thread
Apparently, I have to post more, as having only one post per day on this subject, seems to indicate that I am a non participant.

It matters not onward Christian Soldiers.... solving mysteries and life and finding love and answers.


.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.

.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by Davidjay, posted 04-20-2017 9:14 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

    
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