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Author Topic:   The TRVE history of the Flood...
ringo
Member
Posts: 12925
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 376 of 581 (805896)
04-21-2017 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 374 by Faith
04-21-2017 12:05 PM


Re: Let's not keep arguing the same old basics
Faith writes:

... we dispute the validity of the theories on both sides that account for this or that. And that's the whole debate.


But that's like arguing aerodynamics with a pilot. When you don't know what you're talking about, your opinion doesn't need to be counted.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 374 by Faith, posted 04-21-2017 12:05 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 381 by Faith, posted 04-21-2017 12:40 PM ringo has responded

  
Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15803
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 377 of 581 (805897)
04-21-2017 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 374 by Faith
04-21-2017 12:05 PM


Re: Let's not keep arguing the same old basics
But that could be asked of your model too.

And we could give sensible answers. For example, all radiometric dates being less than 6000 years old. Or modern species of animals being found in the oldest strata. (Along with the city built by Cain.) An absence of erosional features that would have taken a long time to erode. Plenty of (non-cosmogenic) isotopes with a half-life in the order of thousands of years. Not being able to see stars more than 6000 light years away. I could go on, but that'll do for now.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 374 by Faith, posted 04-21-2017 12:05 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15803
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 378 of 581 (805898)
04-21-2017 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 375 by Faith
04-21-2017 12:07 PM


Re: Let's not keep arguing the same old basics
The topic is the Flood, not the validity of the Bible.

So, stick to the Flood. But without assuming as a premise that the Bible is right about it and "the only reliable source of truth on this planet". Try deriving as a conclusion that there was a single universal flood 4000 years ago, from which only a pair (or seven if kosher) of each air-breathing animal was saved as the nucleus of a new population. We'll watch and take notes.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 375 by Faith, posted 04-21-2017 12:07 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 380 by Faith, posted 04-21-2017 12:36 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Faith
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Posts: 24487
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 379 of 581 (805900)
04-21-2017 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 370 by ringo
04-21-2017 11:40 AM


Re: digression on RCC
So name the "best exegetes" of Protestant theology between AD 500 and 1500.

Peter Waldo, John Wycliffe, Jan Hus, William Tyndale

There really aren't any Protestant theologians during that period so basically I skip it in my list of exegetes; but there were inspiring true Christian leaders and preachers, most of them concerned to spread the gospel in the people's languages since Rome had forbidden it, and they had to do it under the threat of RCC murderous attacks on "heresies."

Peter Waldo, John Wycliffe, Jan Hus, William Tyndale are a few of the "heretics." Hus was burned at the stake, so was Tyndale, Wycliffe managed to escape but he'd made the RCC so furious that after his death they dug up his bones and burned them and threw them in the river. I don't know how Waldo died. He was mainly a preacher associated with the Waqldensians who were a Christian group that hid in the valleys of the Alps from the RCC. He is wrongly considered to have founded that sect, he was simply a prominent member of it. The name Waldensian comes from a word for valley IIRC not from Waldo. They'd lived in the Alps for a long time before Waldo showed up.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 370 by ringo, posted 04-21-2017 11:40 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 382 by ringo, posted 04-21-2017 12:43 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
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Posts: 24487
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 380 of 581 (805901)
04-21-2017 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 378 by Dr Adequate
04-21-2017 12:20 PM


Re: Let's not keep arguing the same old basics
You so cleverly miss the point. The Bible is assumed as the premise of a creationist argument for the Flood; that is why I say we shouldn't have to keep asserting our premises.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 378 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-21-2017 12:20 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 383 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-21-2017 12:44 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
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Posts: 24487
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 381 of 581 (805903)
04-21-2017 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 376 by ringo
04-21-2017 12:08 PM


Re: Let's not keep arguing the same old basics
But that's like arguing aerodynamics with a pilot. When you don't know what you're talking about, your opinion doesn't need to be counted.

Then there is no debate you see.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 376 by ringo, posted 04-21-2017 12:08 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 384 by ringo, posted 04-21-2017 12:46 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 12925
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 382 of 581 (805904)
04-21-2017 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 379 by Faith
04-21-2017 12:28 PM


Re: digression on RCC
Faith writes:

There really aren't any Protestant theologians during that period so basically I skip it in my list of exegetes;


So it isn't strictly honest to say you have two millennia of the best Bible exegetes behind you. You have a thousand-year gap.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 379 by Faith, posted 04-21-2017 12:28 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15803
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 383 of 581 (805905)
04-21-2017 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 380 by Faith
04-21-2017 12:36 PM


Re: Let's not keep arguing the same old basics
You so cleverly miss the point. The Bible is assumed as the premise of a creationist argument for the Flood; that is why I say we shouldn't have to keep asserting our premises.

You said "They can be stated as a conclusion from an argument but too often they are just stated over and over and over and over and over in the place of an argument."

I wanted to see if you could in fact derive your beliefs as the conclusion of an argument. Shall I take that as a no?

So what you're left with, apparently, is "the Bible is right because the Bible is right". And now you wish to be excused from asserting your premise ...

Well since your premise is also your conclusion, that would leave you with nothing to say at all.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 380 by Faith, posted 04-21-2017 12:36 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 12925
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 384 of 581 (805906)
04-21-2017 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 381 by Faith
04-21-2017 12:40 PM


Re: Let's not keep arguing the same old basics
Faith writes:

Then there is no debate you see.


That's right, there is no debate as far as science is concerned. Your silly notions were disproved more than a century ago. The reason this site exists is to prevent you from forcing your silly notions on innocent schoolchildren.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 381 by Faith, posted 04-21-2017 12:40 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 385 by Faith, posted 04-21-2017 12:55 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
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Posts: 24487
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 385 of 581 (805911)
04-21-2017 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 384 by ringo
04-21-2017 12:46 PM


Re: Let's not keep arguing the same old basics
In that case we need to invoke Rule 10 against you.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 384 by ringo, posted 04-21-2017 12:46 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 387 by Davidjay, posted 04-21-2017 1:03 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 390 by ringo, posted 04-21-2017 1:20 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12597
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 386 of 581 (805913)
04-21-2017 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 366 by Davidjay
04-21-2017 11:14 AM


Re: Let's not keep arguing the same old basics
quote:

Science dating methods are not reliable beyond a few thousand years, and assume "all things continued without catastrophic interfence..... therefore creation is definitely logical and rational, given its exacting dating methods which have been confirmed via numerous methods as evidenced HERE.

Scientific dating methods do not rely on assuming the absence of a catastrophe. And even if it did that would hardly make Creationism than the dogma of a cult.

Creationist dating methods are based on assuming that the Masoretic text is absolutely correct even though we know it is not. And your method of ignoring the imprecisions in the Biblical text is even worse. Even when you get the addition right. Neither logical, nor rational nor exacting.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by Davidjay, posted 04-21-2017 11:14 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

    
Davidjay
Member
Posts: 460
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 387 of 581 (805915)
04-21-2017 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 385 by Faith
04-21-2017 12:55 PM


Re:Stick to the Flood.....
Faith and all, please stick to the TOPIC.... this topic is not about religion, keep your evolution religion and religious religion out of this thread....

The TOPIC is the GREAT FLOOD..........

The waters of the deep opened up, and pushed their level above the level of all mountain tops worldwide,

After the waters of the deep or portals oclosed, they opened up and the waters receeded quickly, not in eons but in a year or two, creating the flood plains, and trenches and canyons like the Grand Canyon as evidenced in geology.

Noah came out and the human population spread out again. Peleg came along...but we cant talk about that time of division of the tetronic plates because that was a separate event rather than the wordlwide flood.

So lets stick to the flood..... or stick to Noahs demension in the Ark, its location etc....

Sheels only get on mountain tops through a worldwide flood, not from mountaineers dropping them.


.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.

.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 385 by Faith, posted 04-21-2017 12:55 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 391 by Coyote, posted 04-21-2017 1:20 PM Davidjay has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9456
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 388 of 581 (805916)
04-21-2017 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 366 by Davidjay
04-21-2017 11:14 AM


Re: Let's not keep arguing the same old basics
Science dating methods are not reliable beyond a few thousand years

Amusing. But it turns out those few thousand years are all that is needed to figure out when the Pyramids and Stonehenge were erected, and to date some cave paintings in France.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by Davidjay, posted 04-21-2017 11:14 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12597
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 389 of 581 (805918)
04-21-2017 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 368 by Faith
04-21-2017 11:30 AM


Re: Let's not keep arguing the same old basics
quote:

Let me see if I can make the point clearer. It's become a broken record that doesn't further the debate in the slightest. We've been exchanging the same opinions over and over but this can never go anywhere because they are basic premises that aren't going to be changed. They are just being asserted rather than used in the argument to any real purpose

That is certainly true of your assertion that the Bible is reliable. And yet you saw fit to do it in the same post where you objected to Coyote calling the Flood story a myth.

quote:

It's just a huge waste of time to keep getting this same old same old stuff about the Bible being a myth and dating methods being the last word on the discussion

I don't think that you can fairly ask us to stop using strong evidence just because you point blank refuse to accept it.

quote:

Or my statements about the absurdity of the OE/ToE assumptions or that the Bible's dates trump the dating methods. They can be stated as a conclusion from an argument but too often they are just stated over and over and over and over and over in the place of an argument.

The difference is that we have good arguments. If you ever came up with a good reason why dates derived from radiocarbon, tree rings, varve counts ice cores and all the other methods should agree while you can't find a single valid dating method that supports your view things would be different. Instead all you do is assert that your dogma is correct and science must therefore be wrong. Or many, many other bad arguments.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 368 by Faith, posted 04-21-2017 11:30 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 392 by Faith, posted 04-21-2017 1:22 PM PaulK has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 12925
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 390 of 581 (805920)
04-21-2017 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 385 by Faith
04-21-2017 12:55 PM


Re: Let's not keep arguing the same old basics
Faith writes:

In that case we need to invoke Rule 10 against you.


Curse you for making me read the rules.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 385 by Faith, posted 04-21-2017 12:55 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
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