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Author Topic:   The TRVE history of the Flood...
edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(2)
Message 931 of 1352 (810439)
05-29-2017 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 930 by Davidjay
05-29-2017 11:14 AM


Re: Where the flood waters came from...the Bible
Edge, do consider writing more than one liners. Learn to explain yourself, in more than one line retorts.. Thanks hoping you do better in the future.
I'm sorry if you do not have the capacity to contemplate on simple statements. I usually like to provide an idea and let people reflect in their own way. I like to have people to examine the data and come to their conclusions on their own; or at least ask a question for further understanding.
I also don't like to make long, unreadable posts. When I see rambling posts, I tend to glaze over and miss important points if there are any.
At the same time, I notice that your own posts are so vague and formulaic that they really don't tell me anything. All I can see is that you are a dogmatic YEC with little evidence to back up your statements, just platitudes. No amount of amplification is going to add to your argument.
If you have a question, just ask. If all you are going to do is make assertions and ignore alternative ideas, I'm not going to put a lot of work into a response. As most people here will tell you, I do take time to make thoughtful and thorough posts when I am conversing with a reasonable person. Your automatic denials based on nothing are not conducive to discussion. For instance, Percy has asked me for clarification many times and I always try to respond in a meaningful way.
Give us some indication that you actually think about these things.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 930 by Davidjay, posted 05-29-2017 11:14 AM Davidjay has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 932 of 1352 (810440)
05-29-2017 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 929 by Davidjay
05-29-2017 11:12 AM


Re: Where the flood waters came from...the Bible
The Book is called the Bible, or more specifically the words written by the Lord, or His men or women, or prophets..
If you think that the Bible is a geology text, your are missing everything about geology, and about the Bible.
I think with that information you can discern the layers of truth within and on top of its superficial reading. Seek and ye shall find.
Well, what you are discerning from the Bible makes no sense and I certainly don't see an explanation for your speculation about the Bible.
(I am not allowed to start a topic on Geographic Design however, or sex, or anything, so would have to do it here...even though that would be off topic, even though this is actually my topic...)
I have no idea what you are talking about here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 929 by Davidjay, posted 05-29-2017 11:12 AM Davidjay has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 933 of 1352 (810452)
05-29-2017 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 922 by Davidjay
05-20-2017 11:35 AM


Re: A Creationist Sues the Grand Canyon for Religious Discrimination
It is our tradition here not to respond to the moderator when he gives us direction.
No excuses, no explanation. We can make any follow up remarks in the proper forums or directly to the moderator through PM.
The moderator has been extremely patient with you so far...

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 922 by Davidjay, posted 05-20-2017 11:35 AM Davidjay has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 934 of 1352 (810474)
05-30-2017 3:33 AM
Reply to: Message 354 by Faith
04-21-2017 3:00 AM


Re: True history of that shows there was never a Biblical Flood
I've added a correction to that statement in the post
I note that what is left once you start making truthful statements is a substantially weaker argument for accuracy. According to Ussher's chronology, the Exodus was about 850 years post flood. Shem, who is described as living to about 600 apparently did not overlap with Moses at all. Abraham did not write the Torah, and did not overlap with Moses.
Your correction leaves a gaping hole in your argument. Moses recorded oral stories about the Flood and did not overlap with any witnesses. Moses connection with Adam and Eve is even more tenuous and to the days before the creation of man, of course there is no connection.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 354 by Faith, posted 04-21-2017 3:00 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 935 by PaulK, posted 05-30-2017 5:01 AM NoNukes has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 935 of 1352 (810475)
05-30-2017 5:01 AM
Reply to: Message 934 by NoNukes
05-30-2017 3:33 AM


Re: True history of that shows there was never a Biblical Flood
I would suggest that "start making truthful statements" would be more accurately phrased as "stop disagreeing with the Bible"
In reality there is no good evidence that Moses wrote a word of the Flood story in Genesis, and its current form might easily be as late as the Babylonian Exile.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 934 by NoNukes, posted 05-30-2017 3:33 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 936 by Tangle, posted 05-30-2017 5:19 AM PaulK has not replied
 Message 940 by NoNukes, posted 05-31-2017 12:25 AM PaulK has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 936 of 1352 (810476)
05-30-2017 5:19 AM
Reply to: Message 935 by PaulK
05-30-2017 5:01 AM


Re: True history of that shows there was never a Biblical Flood
To get back to the subject....
There's quite a nice paper written by the National Centre for Science Education that puts the case for an extensive regional flood in Mesopotamia when the Tigris and Euphrates burst. Several flood myths occurr in several different religious texts, suggesting that some form of cataclysmic flood did in fact happen.
The Bible (Genesis 6—9) describes a worldwide flood (the Noachian Flood) covering even the highest mountains of the earth and the construction of a huge boat (a rectangular box-like craft) that transported animals, at least two of a kind of all land animals on the earth. The Qur'an (Suras 11 and 71) has almost a duplicate story with a similar huge boat that transported animals and a worldwide flood. In addition two older stories exist in ancient Babylonian epics that describe a huge flood. One is the Epic of Gilgamesh, describing a flood on the Euphrates River (Academy of Ancient Texts nd). The other is the Epic of Atrahasis, which has a huge flood on the Tigris River (Byers nd).
In the Epic of Gilgamesh, [Utnapishtim] is warned that a god plans to destroy all humanity and is told to build a ship to save himself, his family, friends, and cattle. In the Epic of Atrahasis, a tribal chief survived with his family by floating in a boat down to the Persian Gulf. After the flood subsided, the chief got out on dry land and erected an altar and sacrificed to a water god so that such a flood would not happen again (Anonymous nd-a). Noah also built an altar when he got off the Ark and offered sacrifices (Genesis 8:20). Because these stories all describe an ancient huge flood in Mesopotamia, it is extremely likely that a huge flood could have occurred. However, the next question is: "Did the Noachian Flood cover the whole earth?"
The paper provides evidence for just such a regional flood.
It also gives reasons why a global flood is impossible given the evidence we have.
Scientific Evidence Against a Whole-Earth Flood
The Bible says that the rains that created the Noachian Flood lasted for 40 days (Genesis 7:17), that the waters prevailed on the earth for 150 days (Genesis 7:24), and after these 150 days the waters gradually receded from the earth so that by the seventh month and the seventeenth day, Noah's Ark came to rest upon the mountains of Ararat (Genesis 8:4). A year plus two months and twenty-seven days later the earth was dry enough so that Noah,his family, and the load of animals could disembark from the Ark (Genesis 8:14).
Because this flood was intended by God to destroy all flesh on earth (Genesis 6:13) and because sedimentary rocks on all continents contain fossils that supposedly represent the "destroyed flesh of all life," it might be thought that the Bible story, describing a wholeearth flood, was true. However, interlayered with these fossil-bearing sedimentary rocks on all continents are layers of evaporite rock salt (sodium chloride), gypsum (hydrated calcium sulfate), anhydrite (calcium sulfate), and various potash and magnesium salts, which are associated with red beds (shales) containing fossilized mud cracks (Schreiber and others 2007).
Many of these mineral compounds and red beds have combined thicknesses on different continents of more than one kilometer (~3,281 feet) (Collins 2006). The red beds are red because they contain red hematite (iron oxide) which formed from magnetite grains that were oxidized while the muds were exposed to oxygen in open air. The mud cracks can form only under drying conditions that cause the mud to shrink and form polygonal cracks. The evaporite mineral compounds in the layers are deposited in the correct chemical order predicted by the solubility of each kind of ion in these compounds and whose increasing concentrations during the evaporation of water would cause them to precipitate in a predictable depositional sequence as the water volume decreased. Such evaporite deposits would be expected to occur where a marine sea was once present and to disappear when the sea became completely dry. Therefore, one could expect these evaporites to be at the top of the supposed Noachian Flood deposits when the water supposedly receded and the land dried out, but certainly not in different levels in between older and younger fossiliferous "Flood deposits".
We read in the Bible that there is only one time in which the Flood waters are said to recede and leave the earth dry. That is, no multiple worldwide climatic conditions are described in which flooding, then drying to a dry earth, more flooding, more drying to a dry earth, in repeated cycles that occur over and over again in that Flood year. On that basis, it is logical that all the kinds of evaporite deposits and red beds in many different levels in the supposed Noachian Flood deposits could form only in local climates with desert drying-conditions and could not possibly have formed all at the same time a time when a flood covered the whole earth for more than one year (Collins 2006). On that basis, the Noachian Flood story cannot describe a whole-earth flood, but it could only represent a large regional flood.
Yes, Noah's Flood May Have Happened, But Not Over the Whole Earth | National Center for Science Education

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 937 of 1352 (810482)
05-30-2017 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 929 by Davidjay
05-29-2017 11:12 AM


Re: Where the flood waters came from...the Bible
Davidjay writes:
(I am not allowed to start a topic on Geographic Design however, or sex, or anything, so would have to do it here...even though that would be off topic, even though this is actually my topic...)
I would strongly recommend against going off topic.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 929 by Davidjay, posted 05-29-2017 11:12 AM Davidjay has replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 938 of 1352 (810486)
05-30-2017 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 924 by Davidjay
05-27-2017 7:12 PM


tell me how floods and fountains built mountains
As I said in Message 923:
Yes, the shells on the mountain tops showed this as Leonardo stated and observed and as evolutionists theorise against, but
thats why shells are on the crests ofmountains through out the world...and then the floods receeded
See Trilobites, Mountains and Marine Deposits - Evidence of a flood? ... thinking this is due to a WWFlood is facile ignorance of the total geological database.
Since there was no reply on that thread I added a new post, Message 191, just for you.
Anyway, the floods waters receeding is logical and reasonable and is seen in the Earths crust and the geology of the designed landscape.
More facile ignorance of the total geological database. Can you tell me how floods and fountains built mountains?
Or were the mountains there before the flood, then covered in water long enough for mature marine ecologies to develop and create layer after layer after layer of limestone, and then how was that limestone heated and pressurized to turn it into metamorphic rock?
Can you tell me how flood erosion left spires inside the Grand Canyon, and why the Grand Canyon starts cutting through a slope to a high point on the ridge, while lower ridge elevations to the north and south have no such erosion?
See If Caused By Flood Drainage Why is the Grand Canyon Where It IS? for details. Curiously no creationist has yet tackled that thread topic.
Inquiring minds want to know.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : .

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
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This message is a reply to:
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Davidjay 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2329 days)
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 939 of 1352 (810487)
05-30-2017 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 937 by Admin
05-30-2017 8:37 AM


Re: Where the flood waters came from...the Bible
Oh no, lets stick to my original topic of the TRUE HISTORY of the worldwide flood as spoken about by Jesus and his faithful builder Noah. Most of my pertinent information on this exact history is in the BEGINNING of this thread of mine.
Maybe someone else can propose the topic concerning Geography by Design...... they can just post it on the NEW PROPOSED TOPIC board. Here we are speaking about the true history of the FLOOD. True as in TRUE
Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.

Evolution is not science. It did not create life nor did it diversify life. It didn;t create the laws that exist nor did it create science. It is a religion and not Science.
Intelligent design always defeats evolutions lack of design and lack of intelligence. Luck and Chance is not a scientific doctrine,

This message is a reply to:
 Message 937 by Admin, posted 05-30-2017 8:37 AM Admin has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 940 of 1352 (810593)
05-31-2017 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 935 by PaulK
05-30-2017 5:01 AM


Re: True history of that shows there was never a Biblical Flood
I would suggest that "start making truthful statements" would be more accurately phrased as "stop disagreeing with the Bible"
Even with your correction, the result is a bit of a stretch. Moses authorship of the Torah is tradition, rather than something actually something stated in the Bible.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 935 by PaulK, posted 05-30-2017 5:01 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 941 by PaulK, posted 05-31-2017 1:07 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 941 of 1352 (810599)
05-31-2017 1:07 AM
Reply to: Message 940 by NoNukes
05-31-2017 12:25 AM


Re: True history of that shows there was never a Biblical Flood
Since the Bible does not clearly say that Moses did NOT write the Torah, asserting that he DID is at least not obviously disagreeing with the Bible.
But then again, the internal evidence of the text is rather against that assertion, so there is a case that the Bible is against Mosaic authorship. But I'm prepared to grant Faith that one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 940 by NoNukes, posted 05-31-2017 12:25 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
CRR
Member (Idle past 2242 days)
Posts: 579
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 942 of 1352 (810609)
05-31-2017 6:58 AM
Reply to: Message 936 by Tangle
05-30-2017 5:19 AM


Evaporites
However, interlayered with these fossil-bearing sedimentary rocks on all continents are layers of evaporite rock salt ...
In "A magmatic model for the origin of large salt formations, 2009, Stef Heerema discusses major problems with the evaporation theory for large salt deposits and suggests that a more feasible model regards salt deposits as the product of igneous halite magma.
He concludes
The huge salt deposits found around the globe are not the result of the evaporation of seawater over long periods of time. Rather, the deposits were emplaced as a molten magma at temperatures above 800C. The evaporite model requires much more time than is available for the biblical timescale. However, the idea that the deposits were formed by the evaporation of hundreds of kilometers of depth of seawater is totally inadequate to explain the thickness, volume, structure and purity of salt deposits. On the other hand, the model that has the deposits resulting from the generation of large volumes of molten salt ‘magma’ explains the evidence. Furthermore, with the magmatic model the large salt formations are emplaced rapidly by igneous processes, a mechanism that is consistent with the biblical timescale and a young earth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 936 by Tangle, posted 05-30-2017 5:19 AM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 943 by RAZD, posted 05-31-2017 7:12 AM CRR has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 943 of 1352 (810611)
05-31-2017 7:12 AM
Reply to: Message 942 by CRR
05-31-2017 6:58 AM


Re: Evaporites
He concludes
The huge salt deposits found around the globe are not the result of the evaporation of seawater over long periods of time. Rather, the deposits were emplaced as a molten magma at temperatures above 800C. The evaporite model requires much more time than is available for the biblical timescale. However, the idea that the deposits were formed by the evaporation of hundreds of kilometers of depth of seawater is totally inadequate to explain the thickness, volume, structure and purity of salt deposits. On the other hand, the model that has the deposits resulting from the generation of large volumes of molten salt ‘magma’ explains the evidence. Furthermore, with the magmatic model the large salt formations are emplaced rapidly by igneous processes, a mechanism that is consistent with the biblical timescale and a young earth.
Sorry, but that belongs on the Humour thread ... it doesn't explain the impurities ...

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 942 by CRR, posted 05-31-2017 6:58 AM CRR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 944 by CRR, posted 05-31-2017 8:06 AM RAZD has replied

  
CRR
Member (Idle past 2242 days)
Posts: 579
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 944 of 1352 (810616)
05-31-2017 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 943 by RAZD
05-31-2017 7:12 AM


Re: Evaporites
I conclude from this answer that you didn't read the referenced article. Reply again when you have something substantial to contribute.
And so to bed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 943 by RAZD, posted 05-31-2017 7:12 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 945 by RAZD, posted 05-31-2017 5:19 PM CRR has not replied
 Message 946 by edge, posted 05-31-2017 5:49 PM CRR has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 945 of 1352 (810679)
05-31-2017 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 944 by CRR
05-31-2017 8:06 AM


Re: Evaporites
It's too ridiculous to bother, sorry.
I opened the link and was bombarded with creationist drivel, and it didn't take long to find that the cause for the article was to fake an answer to the problem of evaporites.
You're going to have to do better than use sites like this.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 944 by CRR, posted 05-31-2017 8:06 AM CRR has not replied

  
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