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Author Topic:   The TRVE history of the Flood...
Faith
Member
Posts: 26606
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1291 of 1352 (814799)
07-12-2017 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1290 by Pollux
07-12-2017 11:32 PM


Re: Strata (1)
SO silly. The evidence for the Flood is nothing short of in-your-face. The strata, the fossils. Good grief, how obvious can you get? And the Old Earth scenario is simply wacko and impossible. The evidence there is little more than reading tea leaves -- scattered contents of the strata imagined into whole fantastic scenarios.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1290 by Pollux, posted 07-12-2017 11:32 PM Pollux has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1293 by Coyote, posted 07-12-2017 11:48 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Pollux
Member
Posts: 201
Joined: 11-13-2011


(1)
Message 1292 of 1352 (814802)
07-12-2017 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1289 by Faith
07-12-2017 10:48 PM


Re: Strata (2)
Let's look at some more difficulties in the sorting of the fossils.
Each of the major geological epochs is further subdivided. For instance, Permian has stages called Rhaelian, Norian, Carnian, Ladinian, Anisian, Olenakian, and Induan. From Cambrian to Cenozoic there are about 100 stages.

Each of these is defined by the appearance or disappearance of specific fossils. The details can be seen in Wikipedia, where it is easy to click forward or back from one stage to the next. I have checked through many of them and the majority were worked out in 1850 to 1870.

So as long ago as that it was realised that the fossils were in a distinct order, consistent around the globe. The well nigh impossible problem of the Flood explaining the fossil order has got 10 times harder.

But wait, there is more!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1289 by Faith, posted 07-12-2017 10:48 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 1295 by Faith, posted 07-13-2017 12:13 AM Pollux has responded
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 Message 1304 by Pollux, posted 07-13-2017 12:57 AM Pollux has acknowledged this reply

    
Coyote
Member
Posts: 6026
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1293 of 1352 (814803)
07-12-2017 11:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1291 by Faith
07-12-2017 11:37 PM


Re: Strata (1)
The strata, the fossils. Good grief, how obvious can you get? And the Old Earth scenario is simply wacko and impossible.

The dating issue convincingly shows that your beliefs are wrong.

You have nothing but your beliefs to counter multiple forms of dating that all point to the same thing.

This is the problem of evidence vs. biblical belief: in other words, science vs. anti-science. Once again you come down on the side of anti-science.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1291 by Faith, posted 07-12-2017 11:37 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26606
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1294 of 1352 (814804)
07-12-2017 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1292 by Pollux
07-12-2017 11:45 PM


Re: Strata (2)
The layers themselves and their fossil contents, no matter how sorted, speak of a worldwide water event. That and the obvious impossibility of a slab of rock that covers thousands of square miles ever representing a period of long ages in which anything lived, that's enough evidence to make all the details irrelevant.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1292 by Pollux, posted 07-12-2017 11:45 PM Pollux has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1296 by Coyote, posted 07-13-2017 12:14 AM Faith has responded
 Message 1298 by PaulK, posted 07-13-2017 12:19 AM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26606
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1295 of 1352 (814809)
07-13-2017 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 1292 by Pollux
07-12-2017 11:45 PM


Re: Strata (2)
Second thought: Rather than such impressive regularity of the appearance of particular fossils in particular layers being any kind of support for the ToE, it suggests something mechanical about their deposition. Why should evolution produce particular generations of any creature in such an orderly fashion? That doesn't happen in real time, why should it have happened over the time span of the Geological Time Scale?

However, as I've many times pointed out, the sorting does not imply anything about what preceded or followed genetically in a particular biological line. They are sorted according to type, or morphology, but it's nothing but assumption that those in higher layers more recently evolved from those in lower layers. It could easily be the reverse, and in the Flood scenario they would all have been contemporaneous, subspecies, cousins etc.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1292 by Pollux, posted 07-12-2017 11:45 PM Pollux has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1301 by PaulK, posted 07-13-2017 12:46 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 1306 by Pollux, posted 07-13-2017 1:16 AM Faith has responded

    
Coyote
Member
Posts: 6026
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1296 of 1352 (814810)
07-13-2017 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1294 by Faith
07-12-2017 11:58 PM


Re: Strata (2)
The layers themselves and their fossil contents, no matter how sorted, speak of a worldwide water event.

Except that when dated those layers and their fossil contents are separated by millions or hundreds of millions of years.

That's why you have to dismiss the dating issue (based on belief, not on evidence). The dating shows that your global flood scenario during historic times could not have occurred.

Edited by Coyote, : spelling


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1294 by Faith, posted 07-12-2017 11:58 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1297 by Faith, posted 07-13-2017 12:16 AM Coyote has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26606
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1297 of 1352 (814811)
07-13-2017 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 1296 by Coyote
07-13-2017 12:14 AM


Re: Strata (2)
Yes, the dating data is obviously wrong. The facts as I've presented them trump all that.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1296 by Coyote, posted 07-13-2017 12:14 AM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1307 by Coyote, posted 07-13-2017 1:46 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13311
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1298 of 1352 (814812)
07-13-2017 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 1294 by Faith
07-12-2017 11:58 PM


Re: Strata (2)
quote:

The layers themselves and their fossil contents, no matter how sorted, speak of a worldwide water event.

Only in the sense that they could not possibly be created by a single short-term worldwide water event. Which has been shown again and again.

(And even making that claim is contrary to your assertions that we can't know what the Flood would do and that it is impossible to work out what happened in the past through physical evidence)

quote:

That and the obvious impossibility of a slab of rock that covers thousands of square miles ever representing a period of long ages in which anything lived,

Oh this is your silly strawman about the "fact" that nothing can live in a depositional environment - despite all the creatures living in depositions environments today ?

quote:

...that's enough evidence to make all the details irrelevant.

Not quite. The fact that your "evidence" points against the Flood is damning, of course. However fairness requires us to go further before rejecting the Flood altogether.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1294 by Faith, posted 07-12-2017 11:58 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1300 by Faith, posted 07-13-2017 12:42 AM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26606
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1299 of 1352 (814813)
07-13-2017 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1292 by Pollux
07-12-2017 11:45 PM


Re: Strata (2)
Also, another thing I've pointed out many times, in real time, the time we live in, species (subspecies) are created over mere hundreds of years. Imputing millions to such ordinary phenomena isn't just overkill, it's another impossibility. You not only don't need millions of years to make small changes such as are seen in the Geological record from layer to layer, the fact that you lose "information" / genetic diversity in the process of producing such changes means nothing could have evolved beyond the Kind anyway.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1292 by Pollux, posted 07-12-2017 11:45 PM Pollux has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26606
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1300 of 1352 (814814)
07-13-2017 12:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1298 by PaulK
07-13-2017 12:19 AM


Re: Strata (2)
Um, nothing could have lived in a "depositional environment" that became a rock in a stack of rocks. Think think think thinkity think.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1298 by PaulK, posted 07-13-2017 12:19 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1302 by Faith, posted 07-13-2017 12:51 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 1303 by PaulK, posted 07-13-2017 12:54 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 1312 by Stile, posted 07-13-2017 10:09 AM Faith has responded
 Message 1316 by dwise1, posted 07-13-2017 10:32 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13311
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 1301 of 1352 (814815)
07-13-2017 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1295 by Faith
07-13-2017 12:13 AM


Re: Strata (2)
quote:

Second thought: Rather than such impressive regularity of the appearance of particular fossils in particular layers being any kind of support for the ToE, it suggests something mechanical about their deposition.

The big problem for that idea is that the sorting does not correlate with any properties that would support mechanical sorting.

quote:

Why should evolution produce particular generations of any creature in such an orderly fashion? That doesn't happen in real time, why should it have happened over the time span of the Geological Time Scale

It seems rather obvious to me. Descendants must live after their ancestors. Thus evolution predicts a temporal order related to the taxonomic tree of life. And naturally this temporal order must show up in the fossil record if it is a long-term history of life on Earth.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1295 by Faith, posted 07-13-2017 12:13 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26606
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1302 of 1352 (814816)
07-13-2017 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1300 by Faith
07-13-2017 12:42 AM


Re: Strata (2)
Oh, and show me those "depositional environments" on which things are living today that are composed of just one particular sediment without mixture, as so many of the strata are, and flat as a pancake too, just as the strata are. And you could also point out the singularity of the living things living there as well, since what we get in the strata are a select bunch of organisms, a bunch of trilobites, a bunch of dinosaurs and whatnot, rather the range of living things we see today. Of course the whole range of living things existed before the Flood too, and died in that Flood and their corpses got sorted and buried in particular layers.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1300 by Faith, posted 07-13-2017 12:42 AM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1305 by PaulK, posted 07-13-2017 1:00 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13311
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1303 of 1352 (814817)
07-13-2017 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1300 by Faith
07-13-2017 12:42 AM


Re: Strata (2)
quote:

Um, nothing could have lived in a "depositional environment" that became a rock in a stack of rocks. Think think think thinkity think.

Go on explain it to me. Or maybe you should try thinking about it first.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1300 by Faith, posted 07-13-2017 12:42 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Pollux
Member
Posts: 201
Joined: 11-13-2011


(2)
Message 1304 of 1352 (814818)
07-13-2017 12:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1292 by Pollux
07-12-2017 11:45 PM


Re: Strata (3)
There have been some comments while I was preparing my third message, which seems to have disappeared into the ether, so I will try again.

Each of the 100 stages is further subdivided into two or more substages, again determined by fossil order. So this further multiplies the Floodist difficulty, still not being explained by Faith.

But wait, there is more.

As indicated by others, scattered through the fossil layers are igneous layers dateable by RM dating. These dates are consistent with the fossil order. As I said in an earlier post, one of the supporting evidences for the accuracy of Rm dating is the way the ages of seamounts in a chain increase in tandem with the expected rate of tectonic plate movement over a hot spot. So the Flood has to sort the Isotopes as well as fossils in the correct order.

How much more does that increase the Floodist's problem?

But wait, there is more!

Or rather it is what is not there.
A single though large eruption of Toba in Indonesia put a discernible ash layer in a lake in Africa. A recent Flood requires a massive amount of volcanism in a short time, which managed to leave no relevant ash layer in the ice, land or sea cores.

I think the degree of difficulty for the Flood to explain things has been raised to impossible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1292 by Pollux, posted 07-12-2017 11:45 PM Pollux has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 1308 by RAZD, posted 07-13-2017 7:33 AM Pollux has not yet responded
 Message 1309 by Faith, posted 07-13-2017 7:34 AM Pollux has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13311
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 1305 of 1352 (814819)
07-13-2017 1:00 AM
Reply to: Message 1302 by Faith
07-13-2017 12:51 AM


Re: Strata (2)
quote:

Oh, and show me those "depositional environments" on which things are living today that are composed of just one particular sediment without mixture, as so many of the strata are, and flat as a pancake too, just as the strata are.

Walther's law should help you answer that. If you understood why the sequences associated with transgressions and regressions are associated with those events.

Deserts are pretty flat. River deltas, too.

quote:

nd you could also point out the singularity of the living things living there as well, since what we get in the strata are a select bunch of organisms, a bunch of trilobites, a bunch of dinosaurs and whatnot, rather the range of living things we see today.

If you can find trilobites living alongside non-avian dinosaurs today I'd like to see it. However your point is false. At most locations a whole range of different life forms are found. E.g. At one of my favourite sites - when I was young - I found plentiful remains of sea urchins, crinoids, assorted bivalves and other molluscs.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1302 by Faith, posted 07-13-2017 12:51 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
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