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Author Topic:   Evolution is a racist doctrine
jar
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Posts: 28667
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 31 of 127 (805176)
04-16-2017 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Davidjay
04-16-2017 3:30 PM


Re: Jar you dont know the Bible or True History
Sorry David but you are simply telling untruths yet again, commonly called lying. What's more I even posted the verses since it was obvious you had never read them.

There nothing about the people doing evil in the passage. In fact it says just the opposite, that the people were peaceful and cooperating. It was the God character that got its panties in a wad and was afraid they just might succeed in their project to build something new.

It's a theme repeated over and over again in the Bible David; the God character afraid of what humans can do so like any playground bully kicking down their sand castle.

Here is is yet again David. This time try actually reading it.

Genesis 11:1-9 writes:

11 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.

2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.

3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter.

4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.

6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

Sorry Charley; looks like it was the Biblical God that screwed everything up again.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 712
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 32 of 127 (805177)
04-16-2017 4:35 PM


Explain the Bob Jones situation for starters.
World Book Encyclopedia volume B. 1991
Bob Jones University
quote:

Page 444
Bob Jones University is a Christian, coeducational liberal arts institution in Greenville, S. C. It is the largest fundamentalist school in the world, with about 5,500 students from the United States and more than 40 other nations.

The university, established by the world-famous evangelist Bob Jones, Sr., stresses the fundamental belief in the absolute authority of the Bible. About a third of the students train for some form of service as Christian leaders. The university program includes courses in church administration, missions, business,...

...The university... is known for its production of Christian educational motion pictures...



It would be another 10 years until the ban on white students dating non-whites would be lifted. The fallout of the 2000 Bush verses McCain GOP South Carolina primary was to get this world renowned fundi university to lift the ban.

Where did this racist doctrine come from?

The whole thing predates Evolution.

Here are more articles from volume 2.

Pages 386 to 401 cover BlackAmericans article.

quote:

Free Blacks.
....
The Census of 1790 revealed that the nation had about 59,000 free blacks, including about 27,000 in the North. By the early 1800s, most Northern states had taken steps to end slavery.
....
Most whites treated free blacks as inferiors.
....
In both the North and South, churches either banned blacks or required them to sit apart from white people. As a result, some blacks set up their own churches. In 1816, Richard Allen, a black Philadelphia minister, helped set up the African Methodist Episcopal Church, the first black denomination in the country.

That was before evolution can be blamed.

Philadelphia was a major Baptist center, I wonder if there is any evidence of non racist doctrine in the early 1800s among the legions of churches.

Here is World Book Article on the southern views post Darwin (not that southern 1890 views were much influenced by him as we should know ).

quote:

During the late 1800's, blacks in the South increasingly suffered from segregation, the loss of voting rights, and other forms of discrimination. Their condition reflected beliefs held by most Southern whites that whites were born superior to blacks with respect to intelligence, talents, and moral standards.. ... In 1890, Mississippi adopted several measures that in effect ended voting by blacks.

I really wish we could have an honest discussion about why creationism brought us a fundamentally racist world and theological outlook.

We always hear about Malthus and "undesirables" but that book was published in 1798 so his readers would have been of a creationist outline of history mindset.

White Supremacy existed even before the 1800s.

Look at Benjamin Banneker and his issues. Pre 1800 he was trying to use himself as an example for why blacks had the intelligence that should warrent cause for the abolition of slavery. Evolution was a view that was essentially unheard of in the 1700s

Creationism brought us a culture and a powerful constituency that made possible the fascist anti-democratic FBI of a time so close to our own - the 1960s!

J Edgar Hoover and his FBI existed on the voice and votes of a fascist South that denied democracy abroad ( on the ideology of racism ) and exported dictatorship to the world ( like the 1954 CIA bombing invasion of Guatemala which overthrew the democracy and installed a bloody dictatorship which led to hundreds of thousands of deaths of innocent people ).

The whole world nearly became a dictatorship during the Cold War as even the socialists had to become anti democratic so they could focus all their energy on surviving CIA assassination attempts (which wouldn't be possible for several reasons if there was a democracy and a more free society in the countries that they ran ). Creationism brought us Fidel Castro and his anti - Christian dictatorship ironically. Civil Rights was described by the FBI as a communist plot against America. It is a forgotten fact that democracy was seen as a communist scheme in the 1950s and 1960s.

Creationism really has been very anti democratic to the core and it was so much so that it drove the world toward that end.

Why did the Bob Jones University distinguish itself as a racist standout as late as the early 21st century?

The fundamentalist ideology and mission must be taken seriously as the reason.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
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Faith
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Posts: 24398
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 33 of 127 (805184)
04-16-2017 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by LamarkNewAge
04-16-2017 4:35 PM


Re: Explain the Bob Jones situation for starters.
I really wish we could have an honest discussion about why creationism brought us a fundamentally racist world and theological outlook.

We always hear about Malthus and "undesirables" but that book was published in 1798 so his readers would have been of a creationist outline of history mindset.

White Supremacy existed even before the 1800s.

Look at Benjamin Banneker and his issues. Pre 1800 he was trying to use himself as an example for why blacks had the intelligence that should warrent cause for the abolition of slavery. Evolution was a view that was essentially unheard of in the 1700s

I believe you are confusing the cultural phenomenon of the racism of the American South with Christianity which is doctrinally anti-racist. Southern racism grew up from the slave trade and the different status of the slaves from the masters which kept the slaves uneducated and primitive by comparison. This cultural situation got rationalized by supposedly biblical principles, although the Bible is really a strong agument against racism and has been used in all the abolition efforts. Wilberforce in England fought the slave trade and racism based on his Christian views.

You are right that evolution wasn't needed for Southern racism, but that doesn't change the fact that it does have elements that can be used to support racism. The very idea that all life is evolving implies that one form of life is "more evolved" and by implication therefore "superior" to others. This is no doubt a holdover from the view of human beings as superior to all other forms of life, but evolution also implies that there is a distinction even between varieties or races of species as more or less evolved than others, and combined with the assumption of superiority/inferiority already in play it could become a potent influence for racism, as it did in Hitler's Germany.

In itself the ToE doesn't define levels of evolution in terms of superiority, but in combination with that cultural mindset it can and did provide ammunition for racism. It is a fact that Margaret Sanger who founded Planned Parenthood used the ToE to justify her belief that the black races are inferior to whites, and her advocacy of abortion was basically a eugenics program for eliminating the "unfit" as she saw it, just as Hitler's Holocaust was for eliminating the "unfit" from Germany and his ideal world.

I agree that the ToE in itself is not racist. Nor is Christianity. Racism is a human cultural phenomenon, due to fallen human nature. Slavery is also a universal phenomenon due to the fallen nature, and wherever there is a racial distinction between masters and slaves can be used to justify racism.

ABE: When I was in high school in the late fifties there were lots of Jewish kids in my classes and I remember conversations we'd have while waiting for the teacher in one class, in which they often advocated some kind of eugenics program to improve the human race, make us all smarter. When I expressed horror they teased me about worrying about my inferior genetics. These were JEWISH kids just a decade away from Hitler's Germany where no doubt many of their relatives had died.

I also had a friend who got very involved in New Age stuff over the last few decades, in which there is a strong idea of "evolving" superior human beings for the future.

This idea may not be justified by the ToE itself but it's awfully popular with a lot of people, even very intelligent and educated people. I bet there are people here who have such notions in spite of themselves.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
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Posts: 5751
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 34 of 127 (805188)
04-16-2017 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Davidjay
04-16-2017 3:33 PM


Re: Evolutionists are not scientists
So germ theory applies outside of biology? How does it apply to cosmology? or gravitation?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
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Genomicus
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Posts: 813
Joined: 02-15-2012
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 35 of 127 (805189)
04-16-2017 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Faith
04-16-2017 5:40 PM


Re: Explain the Bob Jones situation for starters.
It is a fact that Margaret Sanger who founded Planned Parenthood used the ToE to justify her belief that the black races are inferior to whites...

Citation needed.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 04-16-2017 5:40 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Faith, posted 04-16-2017 6:26 PM Genomicus has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 24398
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 36 of 127 (805193)
04-16-2017 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Genomicus
04-16-2017 6:07 PM


Re: Explain the Bob Jones situation for starters.
http://time.com/4081760/margaret-sanger-history-eugenics/

There may be better sources, not taking the time right now.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Genomicus
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Posts: 813
Joined: 02-15-2012
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 37 of 127 (805195)
04-16-2017 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Faith
04-16-2017 6:26 PM


Re: Explain the Bob Jones situation for starters.
There may be better sources, not taking the time right now.

That article shoots your thesis full of holes more than it demonstrates that Sanger "who founded Planned Parenthood used the ToE to justify her belief that the black races are inferior to whites." It's a popular right-wing myth, but it isn't exactly true. Where in that article do you find support for your assertion?


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 Message 39 by Faith, posted 04-16-2017 7:08 PM Genomicus has responded

  
Faith
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Posts: 24398
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 38 of 127 (805197)
04-16-2017 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Genomicus
04-16-2017 6:38 PM


Re: Explain the Bob Jones situation for starters.
Yes, I picked one that whitewashes her.

Here's another that gives quotes from her: http://www.toomanyaborted.com/thenegroproject/

Why does she think the black community has a greater need for eugenics than others?


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 24398
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 39 of 127 (805200)
04-16-2017 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Genomicus
04-16-2017 6:38 PM


Re: Explain the Bob Jones situation for starters.
OK I'll agree that the racist motivation is exaggerated for Sanger even if there is a tie between the ToE and eugenics and racism in general.

Let me restate my point:

Sanger believed in the importance of eugenics for eliminating the "unfit" from the gene pool, and it was part of her program that became Planned Parenthood. It's not clear how much racism might have been involved in her statement that the black community needs eugenics more than others.

That she DID say in that second link.


This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 28667
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 40 of 127 (805203)
04-16-2017 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Faith
04-16-2017 6:55 PM


Re: Explain the Bob Jones situation for starters.
Faith writes:

Why does she think the black community has a greater need for eugenics than others?

Because the white community has practiced genocide against the black community for many millennia, denying them basic human rights, health care, nutrition, jobs, education, food, water, paved roads, adequate housing, civil rights ...


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Faith, posted 04-16-2017 6:55 PM Faith has responded

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Faith
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Posts: 24398
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 41 of 127 (805205)
04-16-2017 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by jar
04-16-2017 7:22 PM


Re: Explain the Bob Jones situation for starters.
Many millennia?

And how would a denial of basic rights lead to a greater need for eugenics?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by jar, posted 04-16-2017 7:22 PM jar has responded

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jar
Member
Posts: 28667
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 42 of 127 (805207)
04-16-2017 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Faith
04-16-2017 8:08 PM


Re: Explain the Bob Jones situation for starters.
Poor nutrition, poor health care, poor education, poor housing, lack of basic services like water and sewer, all lead to infant mortality issue, underweight births, premature births, starving kids. Eugenics was the smallest part of the Planned Parenthood effort. They were the pioneers on things like birth control education, prenatal health advice, nutrition advise as well as vocal opponents of the oppression particularly of white Christianity.

One of the great shames of today's US Christians are their opposition to Planned Parenthood, sex education and readily available prenatal care.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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Faith
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Posts: 24398
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 43 of 127 (805209)
04-16-2017 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by jar
04-16-2017 8:17 PM


Re: Explain the Bob Jones situation for starters.
Poor nutrition, poor health care, poor education, poor housing, lack of basic services like water and sewer, all lead to infant mortality issue, underweight births, premature births, starving kids.

You are making no sense. For one thing I don't know what you are talking about. Where is all this going on? But again how on earth would such a situation lead to a greater need for eugenics? For one thing, macabre though the idea is, all those sufferings should have brought about some form of eugenics anyway, by favoring the survival of the stronger individuals.

Eugenics was the smallest part of the Planned Parenthood effort.

OK.

They were the pioneers on things like birth control education, prenatal health advice, nutrition advise as well as vocal opponents of the oppression particularly of white Christianity.

Do you mean "BY" rather than "of?" And it would help if you provided some kind of evidence for your claim. I really have no idea what you are talking about, what part of the world even, or what period of time you are talking about.

All those services you list are fine, what Christians object to is abortion. If they stuck to those goals nobody would be objecting. They could improve their services immensely by adopting the work that is usually done by churches: providing help with unwanted pregnancies other than abortion.

One of the great shames of today's US Christians are their opposition to Planned Parenthood, sex education and readily available prenatal care.

You of course misrepresent the situation. Christians oppose killing the unborn, also object to a lot of "sex education" which amounts to propaganda for sexual sin that violates the Bible and corrupts the culture and most likely ontributes to the abortion rate, and I have no idea why anyone would object to "readily available prenatal care." That's some kind of distortion for sure.


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LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 712
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 44 of 127 (805221)
04-16-2017 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Faith
04-16-2017 8:43 PM


Re: Explain the Bob Jones situation for starters.
We were talking about racism now it seems to be abortion.

Abortion has been discussed endlessly but to this day abortion is a procedure that has proven to be much safer for the female than going through the 9 month pregnancy. The mortality rate is like a third even today.

A poor woman that got pregnant 50 to 100 years ago had a very good chance of loosing her life stastically when compared to the option of having an abortion.

All pregnancies are a risk to a woman's health.

It was much worse in Sanger's day.

An abortion doctor from Omaha (now in Bellevue ) said that the death rate per pregnancy is like 15 per 100,000 while it is only about 5 per 100,000 pregnancies if there is an abortion instead. He said studies consistently show the same thing.

Carhardt or Carheart is his name.

But this is getting off topic.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Faith, posted 04-16-2017 8:43 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 28667
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 45 of 127 (805228)
04-16-2017 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Faith
04-16-2017 8:43 PM


Re: Explain the Bob Jones situation for starters.
Faith writes:

All those services you list are fine, what Christians object to is abortion.

Again, simply not true Faith. Some current ignorant and deluded Christian oppose decriminalized abortion but certain not all Christians. But the fact remains that Planned Parenthood does not market abortions or even recommend abortions over other options. But Planned Parenthood will stand up against the small but vocal Christian minority that tries to once again criminalize abortion and move it from sanitary medical facilities back into what existed before Christians (mostly Baptists) helped decriminalize it in the US.

Faith writes:

Christians oppose killing the unborn, also object to a lot of "sex education" which amounts to propaganda for sexual sin that violates the Bible and corrupts the culture and most likely ontributes to the abortion rate, and I have no idea why anyone would object to "readily available prenatal care."

Again Faith, simply not true. Stop trying to speak for Christianity cause you always get it wrong. Just because you have some silly idea about morality and some need to try to force your warped and perverted version of Christianity on others it does not make it reasonable or right.

Abortion is NOT killing babies. It does not matter how many times you make that false accusation, abortion is not killing babies. And other peoples sins are none of your damn business. And I don't know why you crazy Christians object to "readily available prenatal care." but when you oppose funding for sex education and Planned Parenthood and other similar efforts that is exactly what you are doing.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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