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Author Topic:   Debunking the Evolutionary God of 'Selection'
Davidjay
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Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1 of 323 (806052)
04-20-2017 9:34 AM


Evolutionists admit their so called mutations all come about at random, but they seem to have deified their natural selction of this so called beneficial mutations with a non random deity called "SELECTION'.

So lets logically and systematically debunk this deity of theirs, after they try to confirm Her or His or Its Godlike Process.

They can try to select a spokesperson, or two or three, who can testify to its godlike qualities, and then lets start the debate.

IHS

David

PS) But lets stick totally to biology and science, and maybe math rather than allowing their religious views to enter IN. Thanks


.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.

.


Replies to this message:
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Admin
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Posts: 12517
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 2 of 323 (806053)
04-21-2017 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Davidjay
04-20-2017 9:34 AM


You're going to have to say more about why you don't accept selection. Given that breeding exists and works it seems a difficult phenomenon to deny, so the details of your objections need to be made clear.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Davidjay, posted 04-20-2017 9:34 AM Davidjay has responded

Replies to this message:
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Davidjay
Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 3 of 323 (806054)
04-21-2017 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Admin
04-21-2017 7:57 AM


Let the readers decide
But Percy, I got the idea for this thread, when I heard you personnally talking about, Selection' as if its nonrandomness countered the luck randomness of mutations. These being the only two forces supposedly causing evolution in your theory.

So to convince you, would be monumental, and in this case the debate would be for readers to decide rather than an evolutionist to decide. Few evolutionists ever change their mind.

For in a debate BOTH sides put forth their arguments and not just one side. Hence wouldnt you or some other evolutionist have to prove that selection's supposed non randomness does not make it a living thing or an evolutionary 'god' in the minds of evolutionists.

Lets debate it, rather than me convincing you to retract your belief system. Just a proposed good NEW TOPIC.

IHGS

David


.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.

.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Admin, posted 04-21-2017 7:57 AM Admin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Admin, posted 04-22-2017 10:53 AM Davidjay has responded

    
Admin
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Posts: 12517
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 4 of 323 (806055)
04-22-2017 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Davidjay
04-21-2017 8:59 AM


Re: Let the readers decide
You're going to have to state your reasons for rejecting selection before I will promote the thread.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
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Davidjay
Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 5 of 323 (806056)
04-22-2017 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Admin
04-22-2017 10:53 AM


Re: Let the readers decide
Evolutionists say selection is NOT at random, although admitting their mutational god is at random and undirected and strictly by luck and chance. This is not debateable, all sides agree mutations can not be forced, and can not be passed on through experiences or conditions of the species or living KIND.

The explanation you gave is that, selection is not random and somehow is the guiding non random selective force that picks out magic mutations or statistially impossible beneficial mutations, that give a species a slightly better chance of survival in an environment.

But you are making an artifical dissection of mutations. You are suggesting that selection is alive and different than beneficial mutations. Firstly beneficial mutations is an unproven wild theory of evolutionists, and never have existed and theres no proof any explosive mutated by chance beneficial anything has ever changed any KIND.

Your beneficial mutation, by its so called change selects itself because by your wild definition and imagination, it gives the qualities for better survival, better lung capacity, better whale spout holes, better speed for chetahs, a better chance of survival.

So consequently beneficial (impossible) mutations select their viability themselves by being the one in a billion mutations that supposedly make it.

Your separate so called no random selective force is wrapped up in your mutational philosophy and theory that one in a billion mutations is 'beneficial' and is more viable than the original.

If you are unable to debate this, so be it.

But me convincing you, to change your mind is hardly going to happen in my opinion, as you are an evolutionist.

But let the readers decide .....

IHBS (IN HIs Biological Service)

David


.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.

.


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 Message 4 by Admin, posted 04-22-2017 10:53 AM Admin has acknowledged this reply

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Admin
Director
Posts: 12517
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 6 of 323 (806058)
04-22-2017 12:25 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Debunking the Evolutionary God of 'Selection' thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
ringo
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Posts: 13315
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 7 of 323 (806063)
04-22-2017 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Davidjay
04-22-2017 11:52 AM


Re: Let the readers decide
Davidjay writes:

The explanation you gave is that, selection is not random....


The lion doesn't select a random zebra; he selects a slow one. If a random mutation causes a zebra to run faster, it's automatically a "beneficial" mutation.
This message is a reply to:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 4880
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 8 of 323 (806065)
04-22-2017 2:02 PM


I'm going to regret this.

Up to the industrial revolution the peppered moth was white with black speckles. It was camouflaged against birch trees covered with lichen where it rested during the day.

During the industrial revolution in the North of England the trees turned black - covered with soot from the burning of coal in the big industrial towns. The white moths became visible and were heavily predated by birds. Alongside the normal white moths there was an infrequently occurring black mutation.

The white declined and the black increased in numbers because it became camouflaged against the sooty background. The first black peppered moth was found in 1848 and by 1895 98% of them were black.

This is a very clear example of natural selection. The frequecy of occurrence of the black and white variants was controlled by predation which in turn was determine by environmental changes.

When the climate changed back as the Clean Air Act was introduced in Britain the trees lost their soot and the reverse happened. The black moths now stood out against the clean bark and the frequency of white moths increased.

Again natural selection at work.

What's more, molecular geneticists have recently found the gene and the mutation responsible for the changes.

That's the evolution story described fully in one species - descent with modification by mutation and natural selection.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
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Porosity
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Posts: 145
From: MT, USA
Joined: 06-15-2013
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 9 of 323 (806067)
04-22-2017 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Davidjay
04-20-2017 9:34 AM


You are confused or misinformed, Mutations and selection are not entities they are processes.

A beneficial mutation may cause you to look both ways before crossing the road and therefore you have chance to pass on that mutation. But if little Johnny does not get that mutation he may run into to the street, get run over and get naturally selected out of the gene pool.


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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15946
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 10 of 323 (806069)
04-22-2017 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Davidjay
04-22-2017 11:52 AM


Re: Let the readers decide
You are suggesting that selection is alive ...

No. Don't criticize what you don't understand.

Firstly beneficial mutations is an unproven wild theory of evolutionists ...

Wrong. Don't talk about subjects you haven't researched.


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NoNukes
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Posts: 9726
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 11 of 323 (806072)
04-22-2017 4:49 PM


Why is this a topic?
deleted...

Edited by NoNukes, : Removed. After consideration, this comment is off topic.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


    
Phat
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Posts: 9495
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 12 of 323 (806074)
04-22-2017 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Davidjay
04-22-2017 11:52 AM


Re: Let the readers decide
The cosmic lottery argument comes to mind....personally I agree that there is no such force behind chance. There is no cosmic lottery. I have no problems if science also sees this.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

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Phat
Member
Posts: 9495
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 13 of 323 (806075)
04-22-2017 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Porosity
04-22-2017 2:48 PM


Probability
Probability and chance are two different things. We can prove that probability exists...but I'd like to see the proof

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

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Tangle
Member
Posts: 4880
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 14 of 323 (806109)
04-23-2017 3:23 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Phat
04-22-2017 6:14 PM


Re: Probability
Phat writes:

Probability and chance are two different things.

The probablity of a tossed coin coming up heads is 0.5
The chance of a tossed coin coming up heads is 0.5

The difference being what?

We can prove that probability exists...but I'd like to see the proof

I predict that if you toss a fair coin 1,000 times half of them will come up heads.
There's your proof.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Phat, posted 04-22-2017 6:14 PM Phat has responded

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JonF
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Posts: 3799
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 15 of 323 (806137)
04-23-2017 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Tangle
04-23-2017 3:23 AM


Re: Probability
I predict that if you toss a fair coin 1,000 times half of them will come up heads.

Er, the probability of that is 9.3326E-302 not 1.

Something near to half of them will come up heads, but the probability of any one specific outcome is 1/2 raised to the power of the number of trials.


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