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Author Topic:   Debunking the Evolutionary God of 'Selection'
CRR
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Posts: 234
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 151 of 230 (808629)
05-11-2017 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Taq
05-11-2017 10:59 AM


Re: ring species
Many different coat colors are seen between species of pocket mice and even within the same population because of differences in their genotype. Multiple aspects of the environment put selective pressures on pocket mice to adapt their coat colors. [wikipedia]

Mutations can be selected for and fixed in populations but are they information adding? Human adult lactose tolerance is an example of a mutation that has spread but has not increased genetic information. Nylonase is another example where natural selection has fine tuned an existing enzyme to improve its activity on nylon.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Taq, posted 05-11-2017 10:59 AM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by bluegenes, posted 05-11-2017 6:29 PM CRR has not yet responded
 Message 154 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-11-2017 7:22 PM CRR has responded
 Message 175 by Taq, posted 05-12-2017 10:55 AM CRR has not yet responded

  
bluegenes
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From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 152 of 230 (808632)
05-11-2017 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by CRR
05-11-2017 6:09 PM


Information thread?
CRR writes:

Mutations can be selected for and fixed in populations but are they information adding? Human adult lactose tolerance is an example of a mutation that has spread but has not increased genetic information. Nylonase is another example where natural selection has fine tuned an existing enzyme to improve its activity on nylon.

If a group of organisms can acquire a novel function without added "information", then "information" wouldn't be required for Darwinian evolution, would it?

However, if you'd like to start a thread claiming that mutation and selection cannot increase information, do go ahead. I'll expect you to show that dulication, subfunctionalization, neo-functionalization, and sub-neo-functionalization can't happen, and you should enjoy doing that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by CRR, posted 05-11-2017 6:09 PM CRR has not yet responded

  
Tangle
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Posts: 4638
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.3


(2)
Message 153 of 230 (808633)
05-11-2017 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by CRR
05-11-2017 5:58 PM


Re: ring species
CRR writes:

Darwin used many examples of animal breeding to support his arguments for natural selection.

Yes, he saw how features could become prevalent if there was something that selected for them. The lightbulb was that nature could do it too. Rather brilliant.

Since humans are part of nature then deliberate selection by humans is a form of natural selection.

That's really crass. If we include people and our technology as 'natural', the 'natural' has lost its biological meaning.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
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Tanypteryx
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Posts: 1463
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 154 of 230 (808634)
05-11-2017 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by CRR
05-11-2017 6:09 PM


Re: ring species
Human adult lactose tolerance is an example of a mutation that has spread but has not increased genetic information.

So you are saying that if the prior genetic character in adult humans was lactose intolerance, and now there are two genetic characters in the population, lactose intolerance and lactose tolerance, but nothing has changed?

Two characters is the same as one character? Really?

Nylonase is another example where natural selection has fine tuned an existing enzyme to improve its activity on nylon.

Can you describe the process of natural selection that "fine-tuned" an enzyme to improve its activity on nylon?

Did natural selection actually tweak the enzyme molecule?

Is the unaltered enzyme molecule still produced in the population?

Mutations can be selected for and fixed in populations but are they information adding?

Creationists put a lot of importance on gain and loss of "genetic information".

What would be the impact if they did not add information?

What would be the impact if they did add information?


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by CRR, posted 05-11-2017 6:09 PM CRR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by CRR, posted 05-11-2017 9:35 PM Tanypteryx has responded

    
Faith
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Posts: 24846
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 155 of 230 (808643)
05-11-2017 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by frako
05-11-2017 3:55 AM


Re: ring species
Genetic diseases are a consequence of reduced genetic diversity but not inevitable.
This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
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Posts: 18467
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 156 of 230 (808644)
05-11-2017 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by CRR
05-11-2017 5:58 PM


Re: ring species
'
Darwin used many examples of animal breeding to support his arguments for natural selection. ...

Yes, and that different breeds were the result of that.

Purebreds however don't let new mutations change the purebred lineage, so that changes to pretty high selection pressure for stasis. When any offspring are removed from the breeding pool some genetic material is lost and what is left is more and more inbreeding with associated problems.

Let them live wild and they will revert to more variegated dogs in a generation or two by breeding with other dogs. If they survive.

Since humans are part of nature then deliberate selection by humans is a form of natural selection.

Not by anyone's normal definitions.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
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This message is a reply to:
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CRR
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Posts: 234
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 157 of 230 (808645)
05-11-2017 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Tanypteryx
05-11-2017 7:22 PM


Lactase and Nylonase
Human adult lactose tolerance
All mammals are born lactose tolerant so they can digest their mother's milk. This normally switches off after weaning. Human adult lactose tolerance is simply a case of a broken switch. http://creation.com/lactose-intolerance.

Nylonase, fine tuning
"This is the story of a pre-existing enzyme with a low level of promiscuous nylonase activity, which improved its activity toward nylon by first one, then another selectable mutation. In other words this is a completely plausible case of gene duplication, mutation, and selection operating on a pre-existing enzyme to improve a pre-existing low-level activity, exactly the kind of event that Meyer and Axe specifically acknowledge as a possibility, given the time and probabilistic resources available. Indeed, the origin of nylonase actually provides a nice example of the optimization of a pre-existing fold’s function, not the innovation or creation of a novel fold." https://www.evolutionnews.org/...agination-and-facts-collide
See also
https://www.evolutionnews.org/...e-story-how-unusual-is-that
https://www.evolutionnews.org/...tory-the-information-enigma


This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-11-2017 7:22 PM Tanypteryx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Coyote, posted 05-11-2017 9:51 PM CRR has responded
 Message 162 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-11-2017 11:36 PM CRR has responded
 Message 165 by RAZD, posted 05-12-2017 8:16 AM CRR has responded
 Message 166 by RAZD, posted 05-12-2017 8:25 AM CRR has not yet responded
 Message 176 by Taq, posted 05-12-2017 11:00 AM CRR has not yet responded

  
Coyote
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Posts: 5783
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 158 of 230 (808646)
05-11-2017 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by CRR
05-11-2017 9:35 PM


Re: Lactase and Nylonase
You should avoid citing creationist sources in the Science Forums.

Creationist organizations almost always have by-laws or other requirements for membership that include accepting the bible as the absolute word of god, and viewing it as superior to any real-world evidence.

As such, they cannot be relied upon to either do science or comment on science without that huge bias. They are required to misrepresent, ignore, deny, or otherwise "hand-wave" away any evidence that contradicts their biblical beliefs.

Face it--those organizations are anti-science. Why would you cite them in a Science Forum?


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by CRR, posted 05-11-2017 9:35 PM CRR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by CRR, posted 05-11-2017 9:58 PM Coyote has responded

  
CRR
Member
Posts: 234
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 159 of 230 (808647)
05-11-2017 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by Coyote
05-11-2017 9:51 PM


Re: Lactase and Nylonase
That is just an ad hominem attack to avoid facing the issues raised. Anyway Evolution News is not Creationist.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Coyote, posted 05-11-2017 9:51 PM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by Coyote, posted 05-11-2017 10:06 PM CRR has responded

  
Coyote
Member
Posts: 5783
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 160 of 230 (808648)
05-11-2017 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by CRR
05-11-2017 9:58 PM


Re: Lactase and Nylonase
Anyway Evolution News is not Creationist.

Evolution News is produced by the Discovery Institute. They are the ones responsible for the Wedge Document. I think I posted information on that couple of days ago.

The Wedge Document, an internal fund raising memo, was leaked. It shows they want to destroy science as we know it and replace it with "theistic" science.

See:

https://sensuouscurmudgeon.wordpress.com/...e-wedge-document

So, yes, they are a creationist outfit and their pronouncements are not fit for the Science Forum.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by CRR, posted 05-11-2017 9:58 PM CRR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by CRR, posted 05-11-2017 10:46 PM Coyote has not yet responded

  
CRR
Member
Posts: 234
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 161 of 230 (808651)
05-11-2017 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Coyote
05-11-2017 10:06 PM


Re: Wedge document
Yes you have posted it before and
- It's still an ad homonem attack. Deal with the issues.
- I'm a Young Earth Creationist and the Discovery Institute is not.
- I posted the Discovery Institute reply to the Wedge document issue.*
- Sensuous Curmudgeon is not an unbiased commentator.

New Book Debunks Common Myths in ID-Evolution Debate

*Oops, no I didn't. But here it is The "Wedge Document": So What?

Edited by CRR, : Link to document added


This message is a reply to:
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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1463
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.0


(1)
Message 162 of 230 (808652)
05-11-2017 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by CRR
05-11-2017 9:35 PM


Re: Lactase and Nylonase
So, in Message 151 you said:
CRR writes:

Human adult lactose tolerance is an example of a mutation that has spread but has not increased genetic information.


Then in Message 154 I asked:
quote:
So you are saying that if the prior genetic character in adult humans was lactose intolerance, and now there are two genetic characters in the population, lactose intolerance and lactose tolerance, but nothing has changed?

Two characters is the same as one character? Really?


Now you say in Message 157:

All mammals are born lactose tolerant so they can digest their mother's milk. This normally switches off after weaning. Human adult lactose tolerance is simply a case of a broken switch.

This doesn't answer my question so I will ask again. Are there now two alleles for lactose tolerance, one that is switched off in adults and one continues producing lactase in adults?

You implied that natural selection changed the gene that controls the production of nylonase:

Nylonase is another example where natural selection has fine tuned an existing enzyme to improve its activity on nylon.

You didn't answer my questions but instead posted a quote from a creationist website.

quote:
"This is the story of a pre-existing enzyme with a low level of promiscuous nylonase activity, which improved its activity toward nylon by first one, then another selectable mutation. In other words this is a completely plausible case of gene duplication, mutation, and selection operating on a pre-existing enzyme to improve a pre-existing low-level activity, exactly the kind of event that Meyer and Axe specifically acknowledge as a possibility, given the time and probabilistic resources available. Indeed, the origin of nylonase actually provides a nice example of the optimization of a pre-existing fold’s function, not the innovation or creation of a novel fold."

Here are my questions again.

Can you describe the process of natural selection that "fine-tuned" an enzyme to improve its activity on nylon?

Did natural selection actually tweak the enzyme molecule?

Is the unaltered enzyme molecule still produced in the population?

Wouldn't fine-tuning require changes to the original gene that would mean that there is a new gene, consequently an addition of information?

I also note that you ignored this part of my post:

Tanypteryx writes:

CRR writes:

Mutations can be selected for and fixed in populations but are they information adding?

Creationists put a lot of importance on gain and loss of "genetic information".

What would be the impact if they did not add information?

What would be the impact if they did add information?


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by CRR, posted 05-11-2017 9:35 PM CRR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by CRR, posted 05-12-2017 12:54 AM Tanypteryx has responded

    
CRR
Member
Posts: 234
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 163 of 230 (808655)
05-12-2017 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by Tanypteryx
05-11-2017 11:36 PM


Re: Lactase and Nylonase
Lactase. There are two groups, one with a fully functioning lactase system and one with a defective system. Actually there is a third, those born with lactose intolerance who have a non functioning system.

Nylonase. Try reading the links, that's what they're for. They give a full discussion which I took a quote from. And it's not a Creationist web site, however the link for lactase is.

Tanypteryx asks;
Creationists put a lot of importance on gain and loss of "genetic information".
What would be the impact if they did not add information?
What would be the impact if they did add information?

In either case, if they are acted on by natural selection, they could be beneficial or harmful, or both.

It is the theory of evolution that relies on the gain of copious quantities of genetic information. Creationists are just asking how the theory can be taken seriously when the evidence is that the mutation selection mechanism appears to be insufficient to explain where that information comes from.

See my replies to Coyote about ad hominem attacks.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-11-2017 11:36 PM Tanypteryx has responded

Replies to this message:
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Davidjay 
Suspended Member
Posts: 755
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 164 of 230 (808670)
05-12-2017 7:58 AM


Without 'beneficial magic mutations', the God of Selection dies
The God of Selection is only alive and selecting if she has beneficial mutations to select from. If there are no benefical mutations and this lie of evolution is realised and admitted, it means the 'God of Selection' can not select from beneficial mutations. Because of her death and non existence, it means she can NOT let some of them live, via her divine selective process using her divine environmental conditions......

Without beneficial mutations, she dies and is no more, and evolutionists can no longer honor her and pretend she is non random and alive.

The God of Selection dies without beneficial mutations.

And HEREIN we aren't allowed in Propose New Topics to write about the Proofs of benefical mutations existing'

http://www.evcforum.net/dm.php?control=msg&t=19441

No beneficial mutations means NO 'God of Selection'.

The God of Selection never existed

Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.

Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.

Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.


.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.

.


Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 18467
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 165 of 230 (808673)
05-12-2017 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by CRR
05-11-2017 9:35 PM


Re: Lactase and Nylonase
Human adult lactose tolerance
All mammals are born lactose tolerant so they can digest their mother's milk. This normally switches off after weaning. Human adult lactose tolerance is simply a case of a broken switch. http://creation.com/lactose-intolerance.

So it's a mutation that allows adults to use milk as a source of nutrition. Sounds like a beneficial mutation to me, one that would be selected when other sources are poor. That it has spread so far around the world demonstrates that (a) it was selected, and (b) that it was beneficial.

As for stating truths about creation.com being an ad hominum attack, I put that against you using them as an appeal to authority fallacy -- and that those truths expose them as not being a true authority rather than an ad hominum.

Try again.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by CRR, posted 05-11-2017 9:35 PM CRR has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 171 by CRR, posted 05-12-2017 9:42 AM RAZD has responded

  
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