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Author Topic:   Debunking the Evolutionary God of 'Selection'
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1514
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 181 of 323 (808729)
05-12-2017 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by CRR
05-12-2017 9:42 AM


Re: Lactase and Nylonase
There are several mutations are cause a loss of genetic information but which have a net benefit in particular circumstance. Lactose tolerance is one. So are many cases of antibiotic and insecticide resistance. So to some extent is sickle cell trait.

You don't seem to understand what is actually happening to the gene. You have an original gene in the population that has some function. A mutation occurs in the gene that changes its function and if it is beneficial it is selected and passed on to future offspring.

The population contained one gene and now there are two genes. You are saying that two is less than one.

We often see a mutation where a gene is duplicated and the duplicate can be further mutated to have a brand new function. this would be a rather obvious "increase in genetic information."

It is detrimental where there is no access to dairy products which explains why there is a close correlation between dairying and adult lactose tolerance.

How is it detrimental? The lack of milk might be detrimental, but can you show that adult lactose tolerance leads to fewer offspring?

Evolution by losing genetic information is downhill and would be a valid argument if you are saying that bacteria evolved from people but it doesn't work if you propose that people evolved from bacteria.

Whew, luckily no one is proposing either. By bacteria, I assume you mean single celled organism. The theory of evolution does not propose that people evolved from single celled organisms. People evolved from their ancestors, who evolved from their ancestors and so on.

Single celled organisms evolved into more complex single celled organisms and eventually evolved into multi-cellular organisms that evolved more and more complexity. This happened more than a billion years ago, so saying people evolved from bacteria is not only incorrect but ignores a billion years of the history of life.

It is an ad hominem attack to not assess the referenced article because it is on a website you don't approve of.

No it isn't. The discovery institute is a creationist organization that performs no scientific research. They may have tried to re-brand themselves, but the wedge document clearly states their agenda.

I ignore their propaganda because it only consists of attacks on evolution, not reports of scientific research.

The Discovery Institute is not making any discoveries.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by CRR, posted 05-12-2017 9:42 AM CRR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by CRR, posted 05-14-2017 8:50 PM Tanypteryx has responded

    
Davidjay
Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 182 of 323 (808730)
05-12-2017 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by Taq
05-12-2017 11:04 AM


Re: What changes have their been in new babies from old babies ?
Answer the question and keep my discussion alive ?

What mutational beneficial changes have occured in babies, compared to original babies ?

Dont repeat color changes as evidence of mutation, thats laughable and already debunked as a difference in a species.

But then again, add color change to your evolutionary God of Selection, how does she or he select black babies so that they become a new mutated species or KIND different from 'white babies' ?

Just answer the question, and discuss it via your answer.

You have to learn to answer questions ? Have faith and answer !


.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.

.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Taq, posted 05-12-2017 11:04 AM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by Taq, posted 05-12-2017 11:46 AM Davidjay has responded

    
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1514
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 183 of 323 (808733)
05-12-2017 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by CRR
05-12-2017 12:54 AM


Re: Lactase and Nylonase
CRR writes:

It is the theory of evolution that relies on the gain of copious quantities of genetic information. Creationists are just asking how the theory can be taken seriously when the evidence is that the mutation selection mechanism appears to be insufficient to explain where that information comes from.

RAZD answered this before I got a chance, quite eloquently I might add Message 168:

RAZD writes:

Curiously that is a creationist claim, and a falsehood. The theory of evolution could not give squat about "copious quantities of genetic information" -- just mutation and selection, things we see occurring every day.

In addition, your reference to "copious quantities of genetic information" means nothing until you can measure and quantify "information" and actually show increases and decreases. That's one of the ways we know that evolution science doesn't care about it. The other reason is that evolution appears to work very well without any measurement of pseudo-parameters like "information" -- just what actually happens.

CRR writes:

See my replies to Coyote about ad hominem attacks.

Care to show me where I made any such attack?


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by CRR, posted 05-12-2017 12:54 AM CRR has not yet responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 6799
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 184 of 323 (808734)
05-12-2017 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by Davidjay
05-12-2017 11:33 AM


Re: What changes have their been in new babies from old babies ?
Answer the question and keep my discussion alive ?

Deal with the topic?

Why do you think black mice are found in black rocks and brown mice are found in the light brown desert?

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Davidjay, posted 05-12-2017 11:33 AM Davidjay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by Davidjay, posted 05-12-2017 1:26 PM Taq has responded

  
Davidjay
Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 185 of 323 (808743)
05-12-2017 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Taq
05-12-2017 11:46 AM


Re: What changes have their been in new babies from old babies ?
Deal with the question..

Answer the question !!

or have one of your evolutionary friends answer the question.

Why do you refuse to answer the question? Have you no faith in your theory ? Dont you know what your theory says ? Why do you lack courage ?

What beneficial mutational changes have occured within our babies, so that they are different from original babies ?

You evolutionists have talked about these supposed beneficial mutations, so discuss one, state one ?

Or state how white babies show mutational change because they have been selected by your god of selection to be differtent than black babies ?

Creationism wins again because ALL as in ALL the evolutionists have run away and cant answer for their mutational supposed changes...

I choose intelligent design and that color makes no difference in humans and so I am a winner.

Answer losers or make yourself a winner by answering.. have some courage for a change....

IECHFTAG

Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.


.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.

.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Taq, posted 05-12-2017 11:46 AM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by Taq, posted 05-12-2017 1:28 PM Davidjay has not yet responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 6799
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 186 of 323 (808744)
05-12-2017 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by Davidjay
05-12-2017 1:26 PM


Re: What changes have their been in new babies from old babies ?
Deal with the question..

I agree. Deal with my question on natural selection.

Why do you think black mice are found in black rocks and brown mice are found in the light brown desert?

You evolutionists have talked about these supposed beneficial mutations, so discuss one, state one ?

I already did talk about beneficial mutations, the mutations that produce black fur in pocket mice. You refuse to address it.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Davidjay, posted 05-12-2017 1:26 PM Davidjay has not yet responded

  
CRR
Member
Posts: 437
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 187 of 323 (808781)
05-13-2017 3:36 AM


Ohhh Lovely
Ohhh Lovely, so many replies. I would like to thank all my faithful followers here on EvC for their efforts. Unfortunately it would be terribly tedious to reply to everyone individually so I will settle back to craft a singularly spiffing general reply to continue your enlightenment.
Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by Davidjay, posted 05-13-2017 7:50 AM CRR has not yet responded

  
Davidjay
Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 188 of 323 (808788)
05-13-2017 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by CRR
05-13-2017 3:36 AM


Re: Dont run...
Come on CRR.... dont run away.

The question is what magical mutations have happened in human babies, that make them different from original babies?

Or as desperate evolutionaries HERE chatted away for so long about, why do you think color shows there has been evolutionary change ? Why do you think black babies are different than white babies ....... do you really think or believe that blacks are different than whites ?

Otherwise I win again, and evolutionist again refuse to answer any questions..... because they know they are defeated and without answers.

Taq refuses to answer, but you should be able to. Some evolutionist surely has the courage to answer.


.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.

.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by CRR, posted 05-13-2017 3:36 AM CRR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by bluegenes, posted 05-13-2017 10:43 AM Davidjay has responded

    
bluegenes
Member
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 189 of 323 (808818)
05-13-2017 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by Davidjay
05-13-2017 7:50 AM


Time to start the impossible debunking
Davidjay writes:

The question is what magical mutations have happened in human babies, that make them different from original babies?

None. No magic. Mutations are common, natural, physical things. All human babies are born with some.

Davidjay writes:

Or as desperate evolutionaries HERE chatted away for so long about, why do you think color shows there has been evolutionary change ? Why do you think black babies are different than white babies........

They produce more melanin because tropical climates positively select for that characteristic, and did so in their ancestors. It's good protection against ultraviolet rays. Such environmental influences have been known by the phrase "natural selection" since 1859. Such phenomena are a rather obvious and readily observed reality which you're supposed to be debunking.

Davidjay writes:

do you really think or believe that blacks are different than whites ?

By definition. You've just defined two groups with different adjectives, then asked if they're different.

Davidjay writes:

Otherwise I win again

David, darling, instead of flattering yourself, after ~40 posts, why don't you start "systematically and logically" debunking "selection". You haven't yet demonstrated that you understand the use of the term in biology.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Davidjay, posted 05-13-2017 7:50 AM Davidjay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by Davidjay, posted 05-14-2017 10:19 AM bluegenes has responded

  
Davidjay
Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 190 of 323 (808877)
05-14-2017 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by bluegenes
05-13-2017 10:43 AM


Re:Answer the question, Are babies different now than before
Re:Answer the question, Are babies different now than before..

As per usual, evolutionists run when asked a question, because they know they cant answer it ?

I repeat, Re:Answer the question, Are babies different now than before.

What new beneficial mutations have occured that make us different than our ancestors babies, I mean our human ancestor babies.

Do label and explain these beneficial mutations rather than trying to say, mutations are shown by color, because we all know or should know that color is not a mutational change, just a superficial one... evolionists hope we are all different and branching but creationist know we are all the same and EQUAL.

Answer evolutionists answer rather than running and hiding, and getting tripped off.,


.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.

.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by bluegenes, posted 05-13-2017 10:43 AM bluegenes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by Coyote, posted 05-14-2017 10:30 AM Davidjay has not yet responded
 Message 192 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-14-2017 12:59 PM Davidjay has not yet responded
 Message 193 by ringo, posted 05-14-2017 2:08 PM Davidjay has not yet responded
 Message 210 by bluegenes, posted 05-15-2017 5:34 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

    
Coyote
Member
Posts: 5900
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 191 of 323 (808880)
05-14-2017 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by Davidjay
05-14-2017 10:19 AM


Re: Re:Answer the question, Are babies different now than before

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Davidjay, posted 05-14-2017 10:19 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1514
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 192 of 323 (808889)
05-14-2017 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Davidjay
05-14-2017 10:19 AM


Re: Re:Answer the question, Are babies different now than before
"evolionists" hope we are all different and branching

Ah, I see the problem now.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Davidjay, posted 05-14-2017 10:19 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13315
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 193 of 323 (808890)
05-14-2017 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Davidjay
05-14-2017 10:19 AM


Re: Re:Answer the question, Are babies different now than before
Davidjay writes:

As per usual, evolutionists run when asked a question, because they know they cant answer it ?


You have more than forty TOPICS waiting for YOUR answers.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Davidjay, posted 05-14-2017 10:19 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

  
CRR
Member
Posts: 437
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 194 of 323 (808905)
05-14-2017 8:09 PM


Does the theory of evolution require a gain of information?
Does the theory of evolution require a gain of copious quantities of genetic information?

Yes it does. Both in Darwin's formulation and in the modern neo-Darwinian version, although Darwin of course knew nothing of genes or DNA.

Both versions believe that the all life on Earth is ascended from primitive ancestors. Darwin lacked the evidence to definitely say only one ancestor but he made it clear that it was his “belief that all animals and plants are descended from some one prototype.” Most proponents of the modern version, on the evidence of DNA, definitely conclude there was a Last Universal Common Ancestor.

In both versions this common ancestor is envisaged as some simple life form of minimal complexity.

In the modern version with a genetic basis this is supposed to be a single celled organism with a minimal functioning genome, perhaps only a few hundred genes. Some believe this ancestor arose naturally on Earth from non-living matter, some propose panspermia, and some believe it was created by God.

However this original life form did not contain or produce more than a fraction of the genes and proteins life today. Nor did it have multi-cellularity, specialised tissues, organs, and appendages. All of these are supposed to have been produced by evolution over billions of years. “[F]rom so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved.”

Now I say that to produce all these new attributes would require a vast increase in genetic information. Not only to produce all the new proteins but also to regulate them and to produce the multitude of body plans we see today.

Some object to calling this “genetic information”, saying such a term is meaningless until it can be measured and quantified. Even “Shannon Information” could not be measured and quantified until Claude Shannon published “A Mathematical Theory of Communication” in 1948. This did not mean such information did not exist before then. Just so, even if it can't currently be quantified no reasonable person doubts that this genetic information exists. As I have shown in previous posts progress is being made in measuring and quantifying functional information; but the information already exists or it could not measured.

Conclusion: The Theory of Evolution;
• Has a direction. It is attempting to explain microbes to man, not the reverse
• Requires the development of multicellularity, specialised tissues, organs, and complex body plans
• This development requires the production of new genes and genetic information; in copious quantities


Replies to this message:
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 Message 201 by RAZD, posted 05-14-2017 9:07 PM CRR has not yet responded
 Message 209 by bluegenes, posted 05-15-2017 5:07 AM CRR has not yet responded
 Message 215 by Taq, posted 05-15-2017 10:41 AM CRR has not yet responded
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CRR
Member
Posts: 437
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 195 of 323 (808906)
05-14-2017 8:10 PM


Does evolution require a gain of information?
Admin, this is NOT a duplicate post.

Does evolution require a gain of genetic information?

Now we are no longer talking about the Theory of Evolution but merely about change over time in organisms; and that's another matter.

Taking one common definition of evolution, a change in allele frequencies in a population over time, we can see that since this does not propose any mechanism for formation of new alleles then it can only result in loss of alleles, not a gain. If any allele reaches 100% then competing alleles must be reduced to 0% and lost.

Can mutation make up the shortfall?

First we need to note that loss or disablement of genes can be beneficial in the right environment. This is often the case with antibiotic resistance. Generally in wild populations the genetic change that produces resistance exists in very low numbers. This has been confirmed from samples obtained before we started using antibiotics. These are usually a mutation that disables some feature such as a binding site that the antibiotic requires to work. In the absence of antibiotics these are mildly detrimental and so remain at very low numbers. When exposed to antibiotics there is strong selection pressure against the majority of bacteria without the defect allowing the resistant version to rapidly dominate the population. If antibiotic use is discontinued the proportion of the resistant strain slowly decreases confirming that in these conditions the mutation is mildly detrimental.

Sickle cell trait provides a similar example in that the trait is selected against where malaria is absent and only increases to significant levels where malaria is prevalent. However even there the defective allele never exceeds 20% because at higher levels the detriment outweighs the benefit.

Adult lactose tolerance is likewise a genetic defect that allows lactase production to continue into adulthood. For most mammals this is a mild detriment since there is the metabolic cost of continuing to produce an enzyme that is lo longer required after weaning. However humans that practice dairying have lifelong access to milk and there is net benefit for them in adult lactose tolerance. Around the world there is a close correlation between dairying and adult lactose tolerance.

Further confirmation comes from Lenski's Long Term Evolution Experiment. The bacteria lost a number of genes that were not needed in the controlled laboratory environment, saving the metabolic cost of maintaining these genes. A benefit from a loss of genetic information.

None of these examples show a mutation that is solely beneficial. Rather they show defects that have a net benefit in some circumstances. Nor do they show an increase in genetic information, rather the damage or complete loss of genetic information.

Conclusion: Evolution (as opposed the the Theory of Evolution)
• Does not have a preferred direction
• Can involve the loss of advanced features
• Can involve the loss of genetic information

Edited by Admin, : Hide text of duplicate post.

Edited by CRR, : This is NOT a duplicate post


  
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