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Author Topic:   Debunking the Evolutionary God of 'Selection'
Tangle
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Posts: 5071
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


(2)
Message 241 of 323 (810702)
05-31-2017 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by CRR
05-31-2017 5:41 PM


CRR writes:

The evolutionary god of selection is long dead.

You finally said something we all agree with.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Tanypteryx
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From: Oregon, USA
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(1)
Message 242 of 323 (810706)
05-31-2017 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by Tangle
05-31-2017 9:25 PM


CRR writes:

The evolutionary god of selection is long dead.


You finally said something we all agree with.

The irony......it burns like a redhot poker.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
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Tangle
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Posts: 5071
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 243 of 323 (810708)
05-31-2017 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by CRR
05-31-2017 5:41 PM


Dedge writes:

The evolutionary god of selection is long dead.

What is your alternate explanation for the selection demonstrated by the peppered moth example?

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by CRR, posted 05-31-2017 5:41 PM CRR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by CRR, posted 06-01-2017 1:33 AM Tangle has responded

  
CRR
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Posts: 578
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 244 of 323 (810714)
06-01-2017 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by Tangle
05-31-2017 10:41 PM


What is your alternate explanation for the selection demonstrated by the peppered moth example?

Try reading the first line of my post Message 240

quote:
Creationists readily accept that selection happens. Selection by itself produces nothing new but it can produce a change in the frequency in existing traits in the population over time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Tangle, posted 05-31-2017 10:41 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
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Message 245 of 323 (810715)
06-01-2017 1:38 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by CRR
06-01-2017 1:33 AM


Creationists readily accept that selection happens.

This is a bit of overstatement. At least one regularly posting YEC proponent thinks that selection isn't real.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

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Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


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Tangle
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Posts: 5071
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 246 of 323 (810725)
06-01-2017 5:10 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by CRR
06-01-2017 1:33 AM


CRR writes:

Try reading the first line of my post Message 240

Then why post this crap?

quote:
The evolutionary god of selection is long dead.

Creationists readily accept that selection happens.

That simply isn't true is it? Why not ask the guy you were replying to.

Selection by itself produces nothing new but it can produce a change in the frequency in existing traits in the population over time.

Equivocation. It can do that, it can also select for beneficial mutations as demonstrated rather beautifully in the peppered moth work. Your fox has been shot.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by CRR, posted 06-01-2017 1:33 AM CRR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by Davidjay, posted 06-01-2017 9:30 AM Tangle has not yet responded
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Davidjay 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 247 of 323 (810736)
06-01-2017 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by Tangle
06-01-2017 5:10 AM


Peppered moths are color change and not evolutionary change
Peppered moth Lie, is just a color change and as we know or any geneticist knows or any elementary biologist knows, a color change does not mean there has been evolution changing one species into another.

Evolutionists are so desperate for proofs and all they have is color change, and inbreeding after all these years. They are pathetic to say the least.... and desperate as ever.


Evolution is not science. It did not create life nor did it diversify life. It didn;t create the laws that exist nor did it create science. It is a religion and not Science.

Intelligent design always defeats evolutions lack of design and lack of intelligence. Luck and Chance is not a scientific doctrine,


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Diomedes
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Posts: 662
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 248 of 323 (810738)
06-01-2017 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by Davidjay
06-01-2017 9:30 AM


Re: Peppered moths are color change and not evolutionary change
Peppered Moth Overview

Explanation:

quote:
The evolution of the peppered moth is an evolutionary instance of directional colour change in the moth population as a consequence of air pollution during the Industrial Revolution. The frequency of dark-coloured moths increased at that time, an example of industrial melanism. Later, when pollution was reduced, the light-coloured form again predominated. Industrial melanism in the peppered moth was an early experimental test of Charles Darwin's natural selection in action, and remains as a classic example in the teaching of evolution. Sewall Wright described it as "the clearest case in which a conspicuous evolutionary process has actually been observed."

Genetics:

quote:

In 1924, J.B.S. Haldane calculated, using a simple general selection model, the selective advantage necessary for the recorded natural evolution of peppered moths, based on the assumption that in 1848 the frequency of dark-coloured moths was 2%, and by 1895 it was 95%. The dark-coloured, or melanic, form would have had to be 50% more fit than the typical, light-coloured form. Even taking into consideration possible errors in the model, this reasonably excluded the stochastic process of genetic drift, because the changes were too fast.Haldane's statistical analysis of selection for the melanic variant in peppered moths became a well known part of his effort to demonstrate that mathematical models that combined natural selection with Mendelian genetics could explain evolution an effort that played a key role in the foundation of the discipline of population genetics, and the beginnings of the modern synthesis of evolutionary theory with genetics.

In peppered moths, the allele for dark-bodied moths is dominant, while the allele for light-bodied moths is recessive, meaning that the typica moths have a phenotype (visible or detectable characteristic) that is only seen in a homozygous genotype (an organism that has two copies of the same allele), and never in a heterozygous one. This helps explain how dramatically quickly the population changed when being selected for dark colouration.

The peppered moth Biston betularia is also a model of parallel evolution in the incidence of melanism in the British form (f. carbonaria) and the American form (f. swettaria) as they are indistinguishable in appearance. Genetic analysis indicates that both phenotypes are inherited as autosomal dominants. Cross hybridizations indicate the phenotypes are produced by isoalleles at a single locus.


Creationist Facepalm : EPIC!


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Davidjay 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 249 of 323 (810742)
06-01-2017 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by Diomedes
06-01-2017 10:39 AM


Re: Peppered moths are color change and not evolutionary change
Change of color is mere color change just as with the human population where color change or race difference does not produce a different species. Humans whether black or white or peppered is not a proof of evolution.

Come on evolutionists you are embarassing yourselves again..... and agin.

You have only two supposed proofs of evolutionary change, color change and inbreeding.

Both have been shown to be lies and non proofs of desperate evolutionists.

(Remember if you state that humans are different when their color changes, then you in your inconsistencies and falsities prove again that evolution would therefore be a racist doctrine.

No blacks and whites are equal and equally human. Color change is superficial and is not some kind of evolutionary beneficial mutation that makes one human different from other humans.


Evolution is not science. It did not create life nor did it diversify life. It didn;t create the laws that exist nor did it create science. It is a religion and not Science.

Intelligent design always defeats evolutions lack of design and lack of intelligence. Luck and Chance is not a scientific doctrine,


This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Diomedes, posted 06-01-2017 10:39 AM Diomedes has not yet responded

    
RAZD
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Posts: 18972
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


(2)
Message 250 of 323 (810799)
06-01-2017 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by Davidjay
06-01-2017 9:30 AM


Selection happens, it is observed -- time to put this thread is Summary Mode?
Peppered moth Lie, is just a color change and as we know or any geneticist knows or any elementary biologist knows, a color change ...

Means a different phenotype.

... does not mean there has been evolution changing one species into another.

and people educated in evolution know that evolution is not "changing one species into another" but that the process of evolution involves changes in the composition of hereditary traits, and changes to the frequency of their distributions within breeding populations from generation to generation, in response to ecological challenges and opportunities for growth, development, survival and reproductive success in changing or different habitats.

Changes such as the emergence of new color phenotypes, which are then challenged to survive and reproduce.

This is basically a two-step feedback response system that is repeated in each generation:

Like walking on first one foot and then the next.

As such the Peppered Moths are an example of selection based on differences in phenotypes. This of course annihilates your thesis -- as do several other examples posted on this thread -- and it seems your only response is to lie and misrepresent reality.

Evolutionists are so desperate for proofs and all they have is color change, and inbreeding after all these years. They are pathetic to say the least.... and desperate as ever.

Stop lying Davidjay. You have lost this debate too, failing to debunk the "Evolutionary God of 'Selection' " or even make a half-hearted attempt at it.

What is pathetic is someone who loses a debate and cannot admit it nor learn anything from it.

Perhaps it is time to put this thread in summary mode, seeing as you fail to defend your thesis and have nothing to add to it.

Enjoy


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This message is a reply to:
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CRR
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Posts: 578
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 251 of 323 (810802)
06-01-2017 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by Tangle
06-01-2017 5:10 AM


Creationists readily accept that selection happens.
...
The evolutionary god of selection is long dead.

Tangle, if you think there is a contradiction between the first and last sentences of Message 240 try reading (and understanding) the bit in between.


This message is a reply to:
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CRR
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Posts: 578
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 252 of 323 (810803)
06-01-2017 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by Davidjay
06-01-2017 9:30 AM


Re: Peppered moths are color change and not evolutionary change
The peppered moth is an example of equivocation used by evolutionists.

Evolution is true because we have witnessed evolution in the Peppered Moth.
implying that
[All living forms have come from a single common ancestor] is true because we have witnessed [a change in frequency of existing traits in a population over time] in the Peppered Moth.

This equivocation may not be intentional in many cases but the listener is led to believe that one follows from the other. This is a problem with the word having such a wide range of meanings.

Yes the Peppered moth shows evolution in the second sense but not in the first. The responsibility lies with the evolutionists to disambiguate the word "evolution".


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jar
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Posts: 29365
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 253 of 323 (810805)
06-01-2017 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by CRR
06-01-2017 5:46 PM


Re: Peppered moths are color change and not evolutionary change
CRR writes:

[All living forms have come from a single common ancestor] is true because we have witnessed [a change in frequency of existing traits in a population over time] in the Peppered Moth.

No one but you made such a silly assertion. Just more misrepresentation from Creationists as always.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

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Tangle
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Posts: 5071
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


(2)
Message 254 of 323 (810840)
06-02-2017 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by CRR
06-01-2017 5:46 PM


Re: Peppered moths are color change and not evolutionary change
CRR writes:

The peppered moth is an example of equivocation used by evolutionists.
Evolution is true because we have witnessed evolution in the Peppered Moth.
implying that
[All living forms have come from a single common ancestor] is true because we have witnessed [a change in frequency of existing traits in a population over time] in the Peppered Moth.

Why do creationists have to lie like this? It's a very unChristian trait.

Biologists use the peppered moth as a clear example of all the core aspects of evolutionary theory - descent with modification driven by natural selection. Added to which we now have the new knowledge that the modification of the phenotype was caused by a mutation that was beneficial. It's primarily a teaching aid, it's only brought up here because we're dealing with people with childlike misunderstandings of basic biological processes.

This equivocation may not be intentional in many cases but the listener is led to believe that one follows from the other. This is a problem with the word having such a wide range of meanings.

More bullshit. No one but those desiring to be is misled by these terms.

Yes the Peppered moth shows evolution in the second sense but not in the first. The responsibility lies with the evolutionists to disambiguate the word "evolution".

Even more bullshit. The ToE does not say that all life comes from a common ancestor, let alone the case study of the peppered moth. Why keep lying when we've explained this over and over?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by CRR, posted 06-01-2017 5:46 PM CRR has responded

Replies to this message:
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Davidjay 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 255 of 323 (810920)
06-03-2017 6:10 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by Tangle
06-02-2017 3:19 AM


Re: Fire flies, cameleons
The old peppered moth observation way back in the fifties or sixties, is an adaption ability of the Lord for these moths.

Its not proof of evolution, not a cornerstone, not some awesome revelation for evolutionists to worship.

Get real, its a selected color change.... by a brilliant God for these moths.

No different than camoflage skins or hair etc on different animals.... spots on snakes etc etc etc.... underbelly colours on fish to hide them from predators below, etc etc etc etc...

For if we want to really discuss animal abilities and gifts of God, consider chameleons, and how they can change their colours...

Did they get magic mutations to give them this ability ? Obviously not. Did a bunch of chemicals get together and select their compositions to mentally connect up with their nervous systems to change their colours.

Did fire flies, get their cold heat and light by accident and just retain them afterwards because fewer predators could see them NO, Did the Lord give them this absolutely amazing ability and light to be seen by us and other fire flies... YES.

Mystery solved, so forget these pepered moths as if they are a great revelation of truth by evolution to the world, in evolution showing its magnificience

Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.


Evolution is not science. It did not create life nor did it diversify life. It didn;t create the laws that exist nor did it create science. It is a religion and not Science.

Intelligent design always defeats evolutions lack of design and lack of intelligence. Luck and Chance is not a scientific doctrine,


This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Tangle, posted 06-02-2017 3:19 AM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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