Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9161 total)
0 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,585 Year: 2,842/9,624 Month: 687/1,588 Week: 93/229 Day: 4/61 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Debunking the Evolutionary God of 'Selection'
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 76 of 323 (806406)
04-25-2017 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Davidjay
04-25-2017 11:45 AM


Re: STUDY GENETICS
How about you stop posting preachy inane gibberish?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Davidjay, posted 04-25-2017 11:45 AM Davidjay has not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 848 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(2)
Message 77 of 323 (806409)
04-25-2017 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Davidjay
04-25-2017 11:42 AM


STUDY GENETICS evolutionists and stop this insanity of yours !!!
You say this repeatedly and include admonishments to study all other areas of science, but I see not one indication that YOU, yourself, have taken even an introductory course on genetics or even in a general scientific subject. What is your scientific background as far as training and experience?
ABE: Example "STUDY MEDICINE, study NUCLEAR RADIATION, etc.. STUDY GENETICS"
Nuclear radiation???? Have you studied nuclear radiation??? /ABE
HBD
Edited by herebedragons, : No reason given.

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Davidjay, posted 04-25-2017 11:42 AM Davidjay has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9053
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 78 of 323 (806410)
04-25-2017 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Davidjay
04-25-2017 11:48 AM


Re: Probability
Why are you responding to a post that has absolutely nothing to do with you and your argument? This post was not about you and did not include you. You are just posting crap to post crap.
When are the moderators actually going to start moderating?
Follow the line of posts here. His rant has nothing to do with what I posted. My post was to Phat, criticizing Phat's understanding of probability. Davidjay jumps in with a completely of subject rant. None of his responses to me have had anything to do with what I posted. Please someone rein this guy in. All he does is post word salad and preaching. Enough is enough.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Davidjay, posted 04-25-2017 11:48 AM Davidjay has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by herebedragons, posted 04-25-2017 12:10 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 848 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(2)
Message 79 of 323 (806412)
04-25-2017 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Theodoric
04-25-2017 12:02 PM


Re: Probability
Come on Theodoric, had you studied NEUROPARASITOLOGY, QUANTUM BIOLOGY and ORGANIC ELECTRONICS you would understand the relevance of his comments, but as such, his intellect is so vastly superior to ours that we just cannot communicate on the same astral plane.
HBD (one of the intellectually inferior)

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Theodoric, posted 04-25-2017 12:02 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2467 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


(2)
Message 80 of 323 (806414)
04-25-2017 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Davidjay
04-25-2017 11:42 AM


How many, I wonder?
Davidjay writes:
bluegenes writes:
Davidjay writes:
bluegenes writes:
Davidjay writes:
Evolutionists admit their so called mutations all come about at random, but they seem to have deified their natural selction of this so called beneficial mutations with a non random deity called "SELECTION'.
So lets logically and systematically debunk this deity of theirs....
Well? We're waiting. How many posts are you going to make before you start "logically and systematically" debunking selection?
Selection is your god, not mine. Please defend your faith and state something about your beloved nonrandom selector who selects living mutations that somehow someway are already viable and ALIVE.
Ahhh you dont say your god brings them to life, you dsay your god keeps them alive by not killing them into extinction with HER environmental conditions.
OK, we are making progress, you say evolution is a SUSTAINER and PROVIDER of magic mutations that are alive and viable, and 'She' or MOTHER NATURE or a divine environment keeps them alive by her conditions, and selects and sustains these exploding mutational new life forms.
Sort of like a radiation scientist picking out new mutated life forms that are radioactive that aren;t effected by a radioactive environment....
Im not buying it, or ready to honor your god of SELECTION and her SUSTAINING ABILITIES of what is already alive.
Now we are making progress.... as logically speaking evolutionists can not say selection gives anything LIFE, it only supposedly sustains or selects life forms, or sustains life forms under her wings.....
Ahah, I knew I or we would further this debate and come to the basic premise of evolutionary theory or lies.
Well? We're waiting. How many posts are you going to make before you start "logically and systematically" debunking selection?
Variability is an excuse by evolutionists to try and give evolution credibility.
Variability as in mankind, is limited to the superficial, as with leg length etc etc etc etc etc... and more etc. Its variety but we do NOT get a new species or apelike creature from our combinations via mating
STUDY GENETICS evolutionists and stop this insanity of yours !!!
Well? We're waiting. How many posts are you going to make before you start "logically and systematically" debunking selection?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Davidjay, posted 04-25-2017 11:42 AM Davidjay has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(3)
Message 81 of 323 (806419)
04-25-2017 1:20 PM


Five types of people that don't understand how evolution works:
afer Dawkins' "ignorance is no crime"
I have been giving this a bit a thought and would like to break it down slightly differently:
Five types of people that don't understand how evolution works:
  1. people too stupid to understand the concepts. These are the unfortunates. It is not their fault.
  2. people ignorant of the concepts, possibly through no fault of their own. These are the fortunates -- they can be cured via education. A good starting source is Berkeley: Evolution 101.
  3. people that have been misinformed. These are the deceived. It may be possible to cure them with education, however the victims need to be willing to learn, and willing to give up the false concepts they have regarding how evolution works. Cognitive dissonance comes into play here when this affects core beliefs that are strongly held.
  4. people who are charlatans. These are the people that do the deceiving of others. These are the deplorables. They too can be deceived (and likely deceive themselves), however they continue to present falsehoods even when they have been corrected. Trolls also fit in this category.
  5. people who are clinically insane. These are also unfortunates, as it is not their fault.
The more I read this "Davidjay" postings the more I become convinced he is in the 4th category, not really interested in real, honest debate, certainly not interested in learning.
Pity.
I'm starting a new thread with this topic.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : .

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Davidjay, posted 04-25-2017 1:42 PM RAZD has replied

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2319 days)
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 82 of 323 (806425)
04-25-2017 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by RAZD
04-25-2017 1:20 PM


Re: Why cant evolutionists explain their theories
I wonder why evolutionists cant explain their own theory and get upset when people dont just accept it hook, line and sinker, by FAITH. Why cant they answer questions, why are they so sensitive, and get so angry. If someone doesn;t understand their double speak, why dont they just use scientific principles to explain their theory or theory of a theory or a theory of a theory of a theory.
.
. So come on evolutionists dig deep and explain how sellection is alive and picking out life forms that are already alive.
Tell us how variety and recombination is a mutational change rather than a God Gifted variety change.
Ready begin now. Stick to the subject !!!
PST) Inbreeding is not mutational change nor selective change. Its man made manipulation.
I think I know why ? Theres nothing to the theory !
Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.

.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by RAZD, posted 04-25-2017 1:20 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-25-2017 2:02 PM Davidjay has not replied
 Message 86 by RAZD, posted 04-25-2017 2:03 PM Davidjay has not replied
 Message 88 by bluegenes, posted 04-25-2017 2:36 PM Davidjay has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 83 of 323 (806426)
04-25-2017 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Davidjay
04-25-2017 11:42 AM


I tried simple.
Variability as in mankind, is limited to the superficial, ...
What limits it? You've been asked this several times yet refuse to answer. It is dishonest to repeat something that has been questioned without providing substantiation.
... as with leg length etc etc etc etc etc... and more etc. Its variety but we do NOT get a new species or apelike creature from our combinations via mating
As noted in Message 34 and repeated in Message 59 you were caught espousing false information. To wit, you claimed:
But of course we know there are no beneficial mutations that have ever existed that lived and created a new species. ...
My response the second time was:
Polyploid mutations create new species. The species live, and therefore natural selection means the mutation is beneficial. QED
This falsifies your claim, and you have not defended it.
Now I expect you will dodge rather than be honest and admit that you were wrong.
Now I notice that you have moved the goal-posts to claim that no new ape has evolved. Thanks for proving my prediction correct. This helps me categorize you and the worth of your posts.
Polyploidy is rare in more complex species, but partial polyploidy has been known to occur (see wiki: Polyploid).
More commonly this results is sections of duplications of DNA, where one copy can continue to do what it has done and the other copy is free to mutate and evolve without necessarily impacting the individuals involved. This is a neutral mutation that can then be used as a foundation for later development of new traits.
Basic evolution 101. It works, it is real.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Davidjay, posted 04-25-2017 11:42 AM Davidjay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Davidjay, posted 04-25-2017 1:56 PM RAZD has replied

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2319 days)
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 84 of 323 (806429)
04-25-2017 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by RAZD
04-25-2017 1:45 PM


Re: Inbreeding brings variety not a new species
The Lord limits it, and reality shows it as their has never ever been a beneficial mutation.
But thanks for admitting that you think variability is a mutational change, and want to fight to the hilt on that premise.
I repeat, I repeat inbreeding does not produce a new dog species. You can try and try Raz, as others have, but those wierd dogs are still just dogs.
Such a desperate desperate ploy Raz.
Read, I have answered this question many times, and you still refuse to study genetics.
Recombination brings on variety but it never ever has produced a new species. Mutations, kill, radiation kills, cancer misreproduction kills...... there have been no beneficial mutations, and you suggesting that there must be some kind of chance somewhere sometime even given enough shakes of the dice is literally a desperate desperate ploy.
Study genetics, study recessive and dominant genes and charasteristics...

.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by RAZD, posted 04-25-2017 1:45 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by RAZD, posted 04-25-2017 2:05 PM Davidjay has not replied
 Message 90 by RAZD, posted 04-25-2017 3:16 PM Davidjay has not replied
 Message 91 by Taq, posted 04-25-2017 3:16 PM Davidjay has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 85 of 323 (806431)
04-25-2017 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Davidjay
04-25-2017 1:42 PM


Re: Why cant evolutionists explain their theories
I wonder why evolutionists cant explain their own theory and get upset when people dont just accept it hook, line and sinker, by FAITH. Why cant they answer questions, why are they so sensitive, and get so angry. If someone doesn;t understand their double speak, why dont they just use scientific principles to explain their theory or theory of a theory or a theory of a theory of a theory.
This has happened, and is happening, over and over again and you are just unwilling or unable to respond to the content of the posts.
I wonder why creationists can't address the content of the posts that are replied to them and instead just talk shit and preach the whole time. Why can't they have an intelligent conversation?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Davidjay, posted 04-25-2017 1:42 PM Davidjay has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Coyote, posted 04-25-2017 9:47 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 86 of 323 (806432)
04-25-2017 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Davidjay
04-25-2017 1:42 PM


Evolution is easily explained.
I wonder why evolutionists cant explain their own theory ...
Whatever gave you this bizarre idea ... if you are asking honestly (rather than trolling).
Fortunately there are resources where you can check your claim against actual reality.
Welcome to Evolution 101! is a website set up to teach evolution to those who are willing to learn.
I can also give you a quick "cliff-notes" version:
(1) The process of evolution involves changes in the composition of hereditary traits, and changes to the frequency of their distributions within breeding populations from generation to generation, in response to ecological challenges and opportunities.
The process of evolution (also called "micro-evolution" in biology) is an observed, known objective fact, and not an untested hypothesis.
(2) Speciation is the process whereby parent populations are divided into two or more reproductively isolated, independently evolving, daughter populations.
The process of speciation with the subsequent formation of a branching genealogy of descent from common ancestor populations (also called "macro-evolution" in biology) is an observed, known objective fact, and not an untested hypothesis.
(3) The Theory of Evolution (ToE), stated in simple terms, is that the process of evolution, and the process of speciation, are sufficient to explain the diversity of life as we know it, from the fossil record, from the genetic record, from the historic record, and from everyday record of the life we observe in the world all around us.
If you have questions feel free to ask. I can also expand this into more complex steps to go into these processes in greater depth if you so wish, but this is the is the bare-bones nutshell description.
Having explained the theory so easily, it is obvious that your assertion is once again a false claim.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Davidjay, posted 04-25-2017 1:42 PM Davidjay has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 87 of 323 (806434)
04-25-2017 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Davidjay
04-25-2017 1:56 PM


Moving goal-posts is not honest debate
The Lord limits it, and reality shows it as their has never ever been a beneficial mutation.
But thanks for admitting that you think variability is a mutational change, and want to fight to the hilt on that premise.
I repeat, I repeat inbreeding does not produce a new dog species. You can try and try Raz, as others have, but those wierd dogs are still just dogs.
Such a desperate desperate ploy Raz.
Moving the goal-posts again.
Thanks for proving your dishonesty.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : .

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Davidjay, posted 04-25-2017 1:56 PM Davidjay has not replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2467 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 88 of 323 (806438)
04-25-2017 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Davidjay
04-25-2017 1:42 PM


No biology yet...
Davidjay writes:
bluegenes writes:
Davidjay writes:
bluegenes writes:
Davidjay writes:
bluegenes writes:
Davidjay writes:
Evolutionists admit their so called mutations all come about at random, but they seem to have deified their natural selction of this so called beneficial mutations with a non random deity called "SELECTION'.
So lets logically and systematically debunk this deity of theirs....
Well? We're waiting. How many posts are you going to make before you start "logically and systematically" debunking selection?
Selection is your god, not mine. Please defend your faith and state something about your beloved nonrandom selector who selects living mutations that somehow someway are already viable and ALIVE.
Ahhh you dont say your god brings them to life, you dsay your god keeps them alive by not killing them into extinction with HER environmental conditions.
OK, we are making progress, you say evolution is a SUSTAINER and PROVIDER of magic mutations that are alive and viable, and 'She' or MOTHER NATURE or a divine environment keeps them alive by her conditions, and selects and sustains these exploding mutational new life forms.
Sort of like a radiation scientist picking out new mutated life forms that are radioactive that aren;t effected by a radioactive environment....
Im not buying it, or ready to honor your god of SELECTION and her SUSTAINING ABILITIES of what is already alive.
Now we are making progress.... as logically speaking evolutionists can not say selection gives anything LIFE, it only supposedly sustains or selects life forms, or sustains life forms under her wings.....
Ahah, I knew I or we would further this debate and come to the basic premise of evolutionary theory or lies.
Well? We're waiting. How many posts are you going to make before you start "logically and systematically" debunking selection?
Variability is an excuse by evolutionists to try and give evolution credibility.
Variability as in mankind, is limited to the superficial, as with leg length etc etc etc etc etc... and more etc. Its variety but we do NOT get a new species or apelike creature from our combinations via mating
STUDY GENETICS evolutionists and stop this insanity of yours !!!
Well? We're waiting. How many posts are you going to make before you start "logically and systematically" debunking selection?
I wonder why evolutionists cant explain their own theory and get upset when people dont just accept it hook, line and sinker, by FAITH. Why cant they answer questions, why are they so sensitive, and get so angry. If someone doesn;t understand their double speak, why dont they just use scientific principles to explain their theory or theory of a theory or a theory of a theory of a theory.
.
So come on evolutionists dig deep and explain how sellection is alive and picking out life forms that are already alive.
Tell us how variety and recombination is a mutational change rather than a God Gifted variety change.
Ready begin now. Stick to the subject !!!
PST) Inbreeding is not mutational change nor selective change. Its man made manipulation.
I think I know why ? Theres nothing to the theory !
Well? We're waiting. How many posts are you going to make before you start "logically and systematically" debunking selection?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Davidjay, posted 04-25-2017 1:42 PM Davidjay has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9944
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 89 of 323 (806442)
04-25-2017 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Davidjay
04-25-2017 11:42 AM


Davidjay writes:
Variability is an excuse by evolutionists to try and give evolution credibility.
Variability is produced by mutations. Natural selection causes certain variations to be more common or less common in a population.\
Variability as in mankind, is limited to the superficial, as with leg length etc etc etc etc etc... and more etc. Its variety but we do NOT get a new species or apelike creature from our combinations via mating
We do get new species through the accumulation of mutations over several generations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Davidjay, posted 04-25-2017 11:42 AM Davidjay has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 90 of 323 (806443)
04-25-2017 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Davidjay
04-25-2017 1:56 PM


Ignorance of evolution processes and results
I repeat, I repeat inbreeding does not produce a new dog species. You can try and try Raz, as others have, but those wierd dogs are still just dogs.
It always amuses me when creationists say things like this and think it is devastating for the theory of evolution.
If they actually studied evolution, they should quickly find that this is a prediction of evolution -- that the descendants of dogs will always be the descendants of dogs.
And the other thing that is amusing is that the variability of dogs shows that mutations occur, we can document them and we can tie a lot of them to specific traits as a result of the strict breeding records used for breeding dogs ... which are bred (a) to maintain stasis for a "recognized breed" or (b) to produce a new breed, which is often done by back breeding with other breed (there has never been any intention of producing a new species).
What evolution says is that nested hierarchies will occur as a result of speciation events.
When multiple speciation events occur, a pattern is formed that looks like a branching bush or tree: the tree of descent from common ancestor populations. Each branching point is a node for a clade of the parent species at the node point and all their descendants, and with multiple speciation events we see a pattern form of clades branching from parent ancestor species and nesting within larger clades branching from older parent ancestor species.
Where A, B, C and G represent speciation events and the common ancestor populations of a clade that includes the common ancestor species and all their descendants: C and below form a clade that is part of the B clade, B and below form a clade that is also part of the A clade; G and below also form a clade that is also part of the A clade, but the G clade is not part of the B clade.
The process of forming a nested hierarchy by descent of new species from common ancestor populations, via the combination of anagenesis and cladogenesis, and resulting in an increase in the diversity of life, is sometimes called macroevolution. This is often confusing, because there is no additional mechanism of evolution involved, rather this is just the result of looking at evolution over many generations and different ecologies.
So if "A" is dogs, then all the descendants are still members of the "dog" clade.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Davidjay, posted 04-25-2017 1:56 PM Davidjay has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by CRR, posted 05-04-2017 7:07 AM RAZD has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024