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Author Topic:   Debunking the Evolutionary God of 'Selection'
Taq
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Posts: 9944
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


(3)
Message 91 of 323 (806444)
04-25-2017 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Davidjay
04-25-2017 1:56 PM


Re: Inbreeding brings variety not a new species
Davidjay writes:
The Lord limits it, and reality shows it as their has never ever been a beneficial mutation.
All you need to do in order to find beneficial mutations is compare the human and chimp genomes. Among those DNA differences are the beneficial mutations for both the chimp and human lineages.
But thanks for admitting that you think variability is a mutational change, and want to fight to the hilt on that premise.
If variation is not caused by DNA sequence differences between alleles, then please explain what does cause it.
What makes you blood type A, B, or O? It comes down to the DNA sequence of your hemoglobin genes. Mutations are what produce different alleles of the same gene.
I repeat, I repeat inbreeding does not produce a new dog species.
You are shifting the goal posts. We are talking about natural selection, not speciation.
Recombination brings on variety but it never ever has produced a new species.
Recombination brings on variety because it mixes and matches different mutations.
Mutations, kill, radiation kills, cancer misreproduction kills......
Every human is born with around 50 mutations. Obviously, mutations don't kill. You are just lying again.

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2096 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 92 of 323 (806467)
04-25-2017 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by New Cat's Eye
04-25-2017 2:02 PM


Re: Why cant evolutionists explain their theories
Why can't they have an intelligent conversation?
That's a rhetorical question, right?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

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CRR
Member (Idle past 2232 days)
Posts: 579
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 93 of 323 (807584)
05-04-2017 7:07 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by RAZD
04-25-2017 3:16 PM


Re: Ignorance of evolution processes and results
So if "A" is dogs, then all the descendants are still members of the "dog" clade.
Or in other words
So if "A" is dogs, then all the descendants are still members of the "dog" kind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by RAZD, posted 04-25-2017 3:16 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 94 of 323 (807585)
05-04-2017 7:11 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by CRR
05-04-2017 7:07 AM


Re: Ignorance of evolution processes and results
So if "A" is dogs, then all the descendants are still members of the "dog" clade.
Or in other words
So if "A" is dogs, then all the descendants are still members of the "dog" kind.
Yep. I have said for some time that the best fit of kinds is clades ... the only significant difference is how far back you go to find the original ancestral population.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2096 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 95 of 323 (807605)
05-04-2017 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by CRR
05-04-2017 7:07 AM


Re: Ignorance of evolution processes and results
So if "A" is dogs, then all the descendants are still members of the "dog" kind.
You realize that places humans in the "ape" kind, right?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by CRR, posted 05-04-2017 7:07 AM CRR has not replied

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2319 days)
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 96 of 323 (807607)
05-04-2017 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Porosity
04-22-2017 2:48 PM


Poro, behaviours do not get passed on in genetics...... looking both ways is a learned response...learned responses do not change our DNA...behavoirs are given us humans at birth, from Creation.
All life forms have behaviours, instincts, traits given at Creation..Mutations have nothin g to do with behaviours.. How many times do I have to instruct desperate uninformed evolutionists.
Creation wins, selection is not a living process. No amount of semantics makes it a living process. The environment is the environment and does not

.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Porosity, posted 04-22-2017 2:48 PM Porosity has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-04-2017 11:02 AM Davidjay has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4320
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.4


(2)
Message 97 of 323 (807611)
05-04-2017 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Davidjay
05-04-2017 10:06 AM


All life forms have behaviours, instincts, traits given at Creation..Mutations have nothin g to do with behaviours..
Bullshit! We see all sorts of behavior that is genetic. In fact, instincts are behaviors that are genetically passed on to offspring.
How many times do I have to instruct desperate uninformed evolutionists.
One thing everyone who reads anything you write knows is that you have no knowledge to pass on. A second thing we all know is that you are a rude, arrogant jerk who will never learn anything.
behaviours do not get passed on in genetics...... looking both ways is a learned response...learned responses do not change our DNA...behavoirs are given us humans at birth, from Creation.
Not all behaviors are learned you ignorant pseudocreationist.
This is a science forum and religious mumbo-jumbo doesn't cut it here. If you can't support your arguments with evidence you won't convince anyone.
behavoirs are given us humans at birth, from Creation.
Good grief, grow up. Even third graders know this is BS.
Creation wins
Like I said, "grow up."

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Davidjay, posted 05-04-2017 10:06 AM Davidjay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Davidjay, posted 05-04-2017 11:38 AM Tanypteryx has replied
 Message 101 by RAZD, posted 05-04-2017 2:07 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2319 days)
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 98 of 323 (807618)
05-04-2017 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Tanypteryx
05-04-2017 11:02 AM


Why are evolutionists so ignorant of genetics, simply because it goes against their religion. I repeat no behavior changes our DNA. None as in none. Nothing you learn in this lifetime goes into your sexual reproductive DNA, each generation of children remains exactly the same from Genesis. All humans remain the same.
The look both ways behavior must be learned, it doesnt go into the genes.
Behaviours, instincts, traits etc are given at CREATION and are not mutations. That is a desperate ploy of evolutionists to try and claim evolutionary differences or ascents or branching.
Watch out for tricky evolutionists and atheiusts and their semantic twistings.... behaviours are in our original genes, traits are in our original gene make up, instincts and adaptions are in our ORIGINAL gene make up.
Behaviours are not mutations that just happen to make us more viable..... via the god of insane SELECTION.
But evolutionists hate this genetic truth.

.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-04-2017 11:02 AM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-04-2017 12:15 PM Davidjay has not replied
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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4320
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.4


(1)
Message 99 of 323 (807635)
05-04-2017 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Davidjay
05-04-2017 11:38 AM


I repeat no behavior changes our DNA. None as in none. Nothing you learn in this lifetime goes into your sexual reproductive DNA,
And I never said it did.
The look both ways behavior must be learned, it doesnt go into the genes.
And I never said it did. No one here said it did.
Instinct is not learned behavior and it is genetic.
Behaviours, instincts, traits etc are given at CREATION and are not mutations.
Prove it. This is a desperate ploy by an ignorant religious fanatic who thinks that if he repeats his empty claims enough times someone, anyone will be convinced.
All variation in our genes is from mutations.
Behaviours are not mutations that just happen to make us more viable..... via the god of insane SELECTION.
We can all see what's insane here.
But evolutionists hate this genetic truth.
Sorry, you are completely ignorant about evolutionists as you are about everything else. Truth is something you have never known.
Evolution and the Theory of Evolution as well as Natural Selection and variations caused by mutations have become a part of human knowledge over the past century and a half and are supported by all the evidence discovered in that time. No evidence refutes them, especially not your ignorant rantings about an imaginary puny creator.
Grow up. Learn something true.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Davidjay, posted 05-04-2017 11:38 AM Davidjay has not replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2467 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 100 of 323 (807656)
05-04-2017 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Davidjay
05-04-2017 11:38 AM


David: "Why are evolutionists so ignorant of genetics"...
Davidjay in the O.P. writes:
Evolutionists admit their so called mutations all come about at random, but they seem to have deified their natural selction of this so called beneficial mutations with a non random deity called "SELECTION'.
So lets logically and systematically debunk this deity of theirs, after they try to confirm Her or His or Its Godlike Process.
You've now made 25 posts in this thread. So, when are you going to start "logically and systematically" debunking selection?
Here's a paper for you.
Positive selection in mice
quote:
Here we identify genetic changes contributing to an adaptive difference in color pattern between two subspecies of oldfield mice (Peromyscus polionotus). One mainland subspecies has a cryptic dark brown dorsal coat, while a younger beach-dwelling subspecies has a lighter coat produced by natural selection for camouflage on pale coastal sand dunes. Using genome-wide linkage mapping, we identified three chromosomal regions (two of major and one of minor effect) associated with differences in pigmentation traits. Two candidate genes, the melanocortin-1 receptor (Mc1r) and its antagonist, the Agouti signaling protein (Agouti), map to independent regions that together are responsible for most of the difference in pigmentation between subspecies....
Now, give us your technical reasons why you think that the conclusions of these biologists are wrong. Support any claims you make with references to the relevant research.
Welcome, everyone, to the part of the thread in which our David will "logically and systematically" debunk all the research literature on positive selection that you choose to present him with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Davidjay, posted 05-04-2017 11:38 AM Davidjay has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 101 of 323 (807657)
05-04-2017 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Tanypteryx
05-04-2017 11:02 AM


memes are like genes, inheritable and selectable
behaviours do not get passed on in genetics...... looking both ways is a learned response...learned responses do not change our DNA...
Not all behaviors are learned you ignorant pseudocreationist.
Actually I have to side with Davidjay here, not because he is right, but because "looking both ways" is a meme - a behavior taught by parents to young.
This "inherited knowledge" is common to many animals, especially social ones and ones where mothers take care of the young until they are old enough -- and versed enough -- to go out on their own.
Like genes, memes that benefit survival and reproduction get passed from one generation to the next (ie - are selected), while those that inhibit survival and reproduction tend to be lost, although this may take a while.
And of course god/s have nothing to do with learning to look both ways or with parents teaching their children to do so.
behavoirs are given us humans at birth, from Creation.
Good grief, grow up. Even third graders know this is BS.
When you learn something you didn't know or do, then obviously it was not imbued at birth. Gosh even adults learn new behaviors (cell phone selfies for example) ... not all of them good.
Not all behaviors are learned you ignorant pseudocreationist.
Agreed, things like right\left handed are genetic traits that show in the different behavior when throwing or writing, for example.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : .
Edited by RAZD, : ..

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-04-2017 11:02 AM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4320
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.4


(1)
Message 102 of 323 (807672)
05-04-2017 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by RAZD
05-04-2017 2:07 PM


Re: memes are like genes, inheritable and selectable
Thanks for bringing the voice of reason into the discussion.
Actually I have to side with Davidjay here, not because he is right, but because "looking both ways" is a meme - a behavior taught by parents to young.
As you say, a 'meme' or new memory, but not passed on in the genes.
The parental behavior observed in humans and many other species of teaching offspring is what I would describe as an instinctive behavior that is passed on in the genes.
In entomology, I have had many discussions with colleagues about how behavior is all genetically programmed into insects. It appears that certain stimuli cause cascades of chemical reactions and release of neurotransmitters that result in specific behaviors.
When I observe complex territorial and mating behavior of dragonflies in the field I am always amazed at how complex and multivariate it is, almost as if they are conscious thought driven organisms rather than little biological robots. (That is where I really should be right now....2nd nice day in a row....

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by RAZD, posted 05-04-2017 2:07 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Davidjay, posted 05-07-2017 11:07 AM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2319 days)
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 103 of 323 (807955)
05-07-2017 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Tanypteryx
05-04-2017 4:30 PM


Re: memes are like genes, inheritable and selectable
Instincts are not from mutations, or from learned behaviours
As you say, a 'meme' or new memory, but not passed on in the genes.
The parental behavior observed in humans and many other species of teaching offspring is what I would describe as an instinctive behavior that is passed on in the genes.
In entomology, I have had many discussions with colleagues about how behavior is all genetically programmed into insects. It appears that certain stimuli cause cascades of chemical reactions and release of neurotransmitters that result in specific behaviors.
When I observe complex territorial and mating behavior of dragonflies in the field I am always amazed at how complex and multivariate it is, almost as if they are conscious thought driven organisms rather than little biological robots. (That is where I really should be right now....2nd nice day in a row....
Mutations do not bring on learned behaviours...
and learned behaviours are not passed onto new generations of insects or humans.
Instincts are implanted in the original species. Birds do not learn to fly by the stars, nor do fish learn to smell their original rivers and streams, nor do the myriad of insticts and behaviours that define a KIND just happen to magically get into their DNA. All offspring come out exactly as with their parents back to their creation. Evolution nor environment ever have changed instincts or created behaviours.
I repeat learned behaviour does not go into our genes, never has, never will. A species does not get more educated and brighter and more viable via mutations or supposed evolution.
Its just a theory in the minds of insect-ologists who have been in the fields way toooo long. Sexual genes are not influenced by what happens to a species or KIND in their lifetime and in their experiences while alive.
Mother Nature does not select as if alive, beneficial mutations or beneficials behaviours........ its just too much pollen in the noses of those that have gotten too close to the god of evolution and selection
Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.
Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.
Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.

.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-04-2017 4:30 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by bluegenes, posted 05-07-2017 11:49 AM Davidjay has not replied
 Message 105 by RAZD, posted 05-07-2017 2:55 PM Davidjay has not replied
 Message 106 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-07-2017 5:02 PM Davidjay has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2467 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


(3)
Message 104 of 323 (807961)
05-07-2017 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by Davidjay
05-07-2017 11:07 AM


When will selection be debunked?
bluegenes writes:
Davidjay in the O.P. writes:
Evolutionists admit their so called mutations all come about at random, but they seem to have deified their natural selction of this so called beneficial mutations with a non random deity called "SELECTION'.
So lets logically and systematically debunk this deity of theirs,....
You've now made 25 posts in this thread. So, when are you going to start "logically and systematically" debunking selection?
Here's a paper for you.
Positive selection in mice
quote:
Here we identify genetic changes contributing to an adaptive difference in color pattern between two subspecies of oldfield mice (Peromyscus polionotus). One mainland subspecies has a cryptic dark brown dorsal coat, while a younger beach-dwelling subspecies has a lighter coat produced by natural selection for camouflage on pale coastal sand dunes. Using genome-wide linkage mapping, we identified three chromosomal regions (two of major and one of minor effect) associated with differences in pigmentation traits. Two candidate genes, the melanocortin-1 receptor (Mc1r) and its antagonist, the Agouti signaling protein (Agouti), map to independent regions that together are responsible for most of the difference in pigmentation between subspecies....
Now, give us your technical reasons why you think that the conclusions of these biologists are wrong. Support any claims you make with references to the relevant research.
You've now made 26 posts in this thread. When are you going to start "logically and systematically" debunking selection?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Davidjay, posted 05-07-2017 11:07 AM Davidjay has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 105 of 323 (807972)
05-07-2017 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Davidjay
05-07-2017 11:07 AM


Re: memes are like genes, inheritable and selectable
Mutations do not bring on learned behaviours...
Correct. However mutations can alter instinctive behavior:
quote:
Behavior mutation
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A behaviour mutation is a genetic mutation that alters genes that control the way in which an organism behaves, causing their behavioural patterns to change.
A genetic mutation is a change or error in the genomic sequence of a cell.[1] It can occur during meiosis or replication of DNA, as well as due to ionizing or UV radiation, transposons, mutagenic chemicals, viruses and a number of other factors.[2][3][4] Mutations usually (but not always) result in a change in an organisms fitness. These changes are largely deleterious, having a negative effect on fitness; however, they can also be neutral and even advantageous.[1][5]
It is theorized that these mutations, along with genetic recombination, are the raw material upon which natural selection can act to form evolutionary processes.[6] This is due to selection's tendency to "pick and choose" mutations which are advantageous and pass them on to an organism's offspring, while discarding deleterious mutations. In asexual lineages, these mutations will always be passed on, causing them to become a crucial factor in whether the lineage will survive or go extinct.[1]
One way that mutations manifest themselves is behaviour mutation. Some examples of this could be variations in mating patterns,[7] increasingly aggressive or passive demeanor,[8] how an individual learns and the way an individual interacts and coordinates with others.[9]
Note that these are instinctive behaviors that are modified by mutation, and then they are selected ... preserved if beneficial or neutral, removed if deleterious.
and learned behaviours are not passed onto new generations of insects or humans.
Wrong.
Memes are learned behaviors passed from generation to generation. Behaviors get positively selected if beneficial, but rejected if deleterious. Social species (insects to humans) tend to pass on beneficial learned behaviors from generation to generation, such as returning to a source of nutrition.
Instincts are implanted in the original species. ...
(1) What is the original species? What is your evidence? Untestable unevidenced assertions are not science.
(2) Behaviors change over time (see behavior mutation above) so daughter instincts are different from parent instincts.
... Birds do not learn to fly by the stars, ...
Yet the migration routes and patterns and times of year and destinations change over time. Look at the Canada Goose for example:
quote:
Canada Goose Relationship with humans
In North America, nonmigratory Canada goose populations have been on the rise. The species is frequently found on golf courses, parking lots, and urban parks, which would have previously hosted only migratory geese on rare occasions. Owing to its adaptability to human-altered areas, it has become the most common waterfowl species in North America.[citation needed] In many areas, nonmigratory Canada geese are now regarded as pests by humans.
Nonmigratory geese have evolved to adapt to a new ecological environment, an obviously beneficial adaptation as their numbers are rising.
Is it genes or is it memes? Doesn't matter as the result is the same: beneficial behavior is selected because it increases survival and reproduction.
I repeat learned behaviour does not go into our genes, never has, never will. ...
However behavior mutations are genetic and they are subject to selection.
... A species does not get more educated and brighter and more viable via mutations or supposed evolution.
Humans obviously have. The changes in brain volume and shape has increased intelligence over time, due to creativity being positively selected.
Its just a theory in the minds of insect-ologists who have been in the fields way toooo long. Sexual genes are not influenced by what happens to a species or KIND in their lifetime and in their experiences while alive.
Curiously it keeps cropping up in the objective empirical evidence of mutations, benefits and selection.
ps - the word is entomologist.
Mother Nature does not select as if alive ...
An oxymoron.
... Nature does not select ..., beneficial mutations or beneficials behaviours........
Curiously it just keeps cropping up all over the place in the objective empirical evidence of mutations, benefits and selection. Perhaps you would be interested in #3 below:
de•lu•sion -noun (American Heritage Dictionary 2009)
  1. a. The act or process of deluding.
    b. The state of being deluded.
  2. A false belief or opinion: labored under the delusion that success was at hand.
  3. Psychiatry A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness: delusions of persecution.
Seems to fit to me.
Got any evidence (not assertions) that selection doesn't happen? (not holding my breath).
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : .
Edited by RAZD, : human intelligence evolved

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Davidjay, posted 05-07-2017 11:07 AM Davidjay has not replied

  
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