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Author Topic:   Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
JonF
Member
Posts: 3969
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1246 of 1311 (816480)
08-05-2017 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1241 by Faith
08-05-2017 3:17 AM


Re: seven "assumptions"
I don't feel any need to try to prove it. It remains a fact that if God inspired the writers the writing has no errors and should be taken as God's own communication. My opinion is irrelevant, as is yours.

So your unsupported opinion is a now a fact?

You have obviously acknowledged that your opinion is unsupportable and is just as irrelevant to reality as mine. Personally, I doubt God dictated the bible but I don't claim any certainty; because such opinions are unsupportable.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1241 by Faith, posted 08-05-2017 3:17 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1247 by Faith, posted 08-05-2017 9:33 AM JonF has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26449
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1247 of 1311 (816485)
08-05-2017 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1246 by JonF
08-05-2017 8:10 AM


inspiration
Funny how y'all keep missing the simple basic logic here, which is stated thusly: If the writings are inspired by God, if the people who wrote them down were inspired by God, then they are inerrant and it is not a matter of human opinion. Just fyi, the Greek word translated "inspired" in English literally means "God-breathed."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1246 by JonF, posted 08-05-2017 8:10 AM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1248 by PaulK, posted 08-05-2017 9:40 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 1249 by JonF, posted 08-05-2017 9:49 AM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
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Posts: 13228
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 1248 of 1311 (816486)
08-05-2017 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1247 by Faith
08-05-2017 9:33 AM


Re: inspiration
It's not logic, it's just your opinion. And one which has very dubious grounds.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1247 by Faith, posted 08-05-2017 9:33 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
JonF
Member
Posts: 3969
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 1249 of 1311 (816488)
08-05-2017 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1247 by Faith
08-05-2017 9:33 AM


Re: inspiration
That is indeed logical. IF the writings are inspired by God, IF the people who wrote them down were inspired by God, then they are inerrant and it is not a matter of human opinion.

IF.

Got anything other than your opinion to get rid of those IFs?

Obviously not.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1247 by Faith, posted 08-05-2017 9:33 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1251 by Faith, posted 08-05-2017 10:33 AM JonF has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5101
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1250 of 1311 (816489)
08-05-2017 10:26 AM


.....and why did he use this preposterous method that was bound to go wrong and be disbelieved? Why not write them himself?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 1253 by Faith, posted 08-05-2017 10:47 AM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26449
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1251 of 1311 (816490)
08-05-2017 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1249 by JonF
08-05-2017 9:49 AM


Re: inspiration
Ah well, A simple if...then really ought not to be such a problem. It's not a matter of opinion.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1249 by JonF, posted 08-05-2017 9:49 AM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1252 by PaulK, posted 08-05-2017 10:37 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 1254 by JonF, posted 08-05-2017 10:51 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13228
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1252 of 1311 (816491)
08-05-2017 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1251 by Faith
08-05-2017 10:33 AM


Re: inspiration
Indeed. Since it is a clear fact that the Bible is not inerrant you must be wrong about something. Either the Bible is not inspired - at least in part, or your notion of inspiration is incorrect.

Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1251 by Faith, posted 08-05-2017 10:33 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26449
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1253 of 1311 (816492)
08-05-2017 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1250 by Tangle
08-05-2017 10:26 AM


this preposterous method
...and why did he use this preposterous method that was bound to go wrong and be disbelieved? Why not write them himself?

People ignorant of 2000 years of theology really should take the time to learn something instead of expressing such ridiculous opinions.

"Bound to go wrong?" That's ridiculous for starters. The Bible has been believed by millions for the last two millennia, and been the cause of great changes in society, even the foundation of western civilization itself out of barbarian Europe.

If some disbelieve it hardly matters. And besides we know that was part of the plan. God isn't interested in turning the entire world into believers, but in saving those who do believe out of this fallen world, to make up a chosen people, just as He did with ancient Israel. It's His way whether you like it or not. So we have believers and we have unbelievers, until He comes again.

There is enough there to make believers of millions. I forget exactly how Pascal put it, but something like this: The Bible contains enough light to guide believers, and enough obscurity to discourage unbelievers. There's no lack of light for anyone who in good faith would like to understand and believe, but if you don't or won't, so be it.

Pascal also said something about those who are always objecting to Biblical revelation: that they really ought to learn something about the religion they are criticizing before they open their mouths. Of course there are always those who have learned a great deal and use it as a cudgel too. The more the truth is attacked, however, the more it acquires believers. Funny how that is.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1250 by Tangle, posted 08-05-2017 10:26 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1255 by JonF, posted 08-05-2017 10:54 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 1256 by Tangle, posted 08-05-2017 11:04 AM Faith has responded

    
JonF
Member
Posts: 3969
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 1254 of 1311 (816493)
08-05-2017 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1251 by Faith
08-05-2017 10:33 AM


Re: inspiration
A simple if...then really ought not to be such a problem

The if...then is not a problem. It's true. The problem is your unsupported leap from if..then to is.

It's not a matter of opinion.

It is a matter of opinion, absent any supporting evidence.

You claim that Bible is dictated by God and inerrant because the Bible is dictated by God and inerrant. Awfully tight circular reasoning there. And not logical.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1251 by Faith, posted 08-05-2017 10:33 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 3969
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 1255 of 1311 (816494)
08-05-2017 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1253 by Faith
08-05-2017 10:47 AM


Re: this preposterous method
The Bible has been believed by millions for the last two millennia, and been the cause of great changes in society, even the foundation of western civilization itself out of barbarian Europe.

Somewhat true and irrelevant to the issue on inerrancy.

Got any evidence relevant to inerrancy or God's dictaphone? "Lots of people believe it" is not proof. Lots of people are wrong about lots of things.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1253 by Faith, posted 08-05-2017 10:47 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5101
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1256 of 1311 (816495)
08-05-2017 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 1253 by Faith
08-05-2017 10:47 AM


Re: this preposterous method
Faith writes:

Bound to go wrong?" That's ridiculous for starters. The Bible has been believed by millions for the last two millennia, and been the cause of great changes in society, even the foundation of western civilization itself out of barbarian Europe.

Even after 2,000 years it's disbelieved by billions more than believe. And those that believe in it don't believe the same things. Why make it this way? Why not write it yourself? How is it possible to that the word of god is not capable of being understood equally by all?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1253 by Faith, posted 08-05-2017 10:47 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1257 by Faith, posted 08-05-2017 11:22 AM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26449
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1257 of 1311 (816496)
08-05-2017 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1256 by Tangle
08-05-2017 11:04 AM


Re: this preposterous method
Faith writes:

Bound to go wrong?" That's ridiculous for starters. The Bible has been believed by millions for the last two millennia, and been the cause of great changes in society, even the foundation of western civilization itself out of barbarian Europe.

Even after 2,000 years it's disbelieved by billions more than believe. And those that believe in it don't believe the same things. Why make it this way? Why not write it yourself? How is it possible to that the word of god is not capable of being understood equally by all?

I'm glad I can see the humor in all this lately. The cleverness of the debunkers is really very amusing.

But lemme see, how might I try to answer this? According to your reasoning the truth is to be found in the greater numbers of those who disbelieve in the Bible? Is majority opinion really the basis of truth?

Why not understood by all? Perhaps because as the Bible itself reveals, this world is fallen, our minds are corrupted, we lost touch with God through the disobedience of our original parents and have continued to be sinners ever since. The evidence of that is in the billions of disbelievers for starters. Also in the fact that the ability to believe is a gift from God, it's not in us as fallen humanity, and it's a gift based on the great sacrifice of the Son of God who died so that God could give us eternal life, which He couldn't morally or justly do until our sin debt was paid for. It would defeat the purpose of demonstrating the realities of fallenness, sin, salvation and redemption, if everyone could understand the Bible. There are many here who think they understand it but don't. All that is evidence of its truth, or will be seen to be in the end.

SO I suppose we have to have debunkers until Jesus returns, in order to demonstrate the truth of the Bible itself. To demonstrate the ugliness of sin and the costliness of atoning for it. .

This is way way way off topic you know.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1256 by Tangle, posted 08-05-2017 11:04 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1258 by Tangle, posted 08-05-2017 11:33 AM Faith has responded
 Message 1260 by JonF, posted 08-05-2017 11:44 AM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5101
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1258 of 1311 (816497)
08-05-2017 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1257 by Faith
08-05-2017 11:22 AM


Re: this preposterous method
Faith writes:

But lemme see, how might I try to answer this? According to your reasoning the truth is to be found in the greater numbers of those who disbelieve in the Bible?


It was your point Chuck, not mine.

"The Bible has been believed by millions for the last two millennia"

But one imagines that the point of it was to persuade? If so it's failed. Christianity is not even a majority belief. And in the developed world it's in decline.

There are many here who think they understand it but don't.

Exactly my point. Why bother leaving this vitally important story in the hands of fallible man? Why not write it himself?

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1257 by Faith, posted 08-05-2017 11:22 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1261 by Faith, posted 08-05-2017 11:48 AM Tangle has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13730
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 1259 of 1311 (816500)
08-05-2017 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1230 by Faith
08-04-2017 3:55 PM


Re: seven "assumptions"
Faith writes:

Except those inspired by God.


Your fallible human mind is fooling you into thinking that.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1230 by Faith, posted 08-04-2017 3:55 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 3969
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1260 of 1311 (816502)
08-05-2017 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1257 by Faith
08-05-2017 11:22 AM


Re: this preposterous method
But lemme see, how might I try to answer this? According to your reasoning the truth is to be found in the greater numbers of those who disbelieve in the Bible? Is majority opinion really the basis of truth?

No.

But you seem to think it is:

The Bible has been believed by millions for the last two millennia

He was criticizing that claim.

So, does it matter how many people believe or disbelieve?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1257 by Faith, posted 08-05-2017 11:22 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1262 by Faith, posted 08-05-2017 11:51 AM JonF has responded

  
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