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Author Topic:   Y.E.C. Model: Was there rapid evolution and speciation post flood?
jar
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Posts: 29182
From: Texas!!
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Member Rating: 2.8


Message 256 of 425 (809389)
05-18-2017 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by bluegenes
05-18-2017 9:53 AM


On Adam & Eve?
Gotta ask one more time since so far I don't think anyone has answered.

If the Bible story was true and Eve really was cloned from Adam's rib bone would "Adam and Eve: maximum possible 4" be correct or "Adam and Eve: maximum possible 2"?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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bluegenes
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(1)
Message 257 of 425 (809401)
05-18-2017 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by jar
05-18-2017 10:00 AM


Re: On Adam & Eve?
I think I did answer your earlier post.

Faith's going for two alleles, but God might not have used standard cloning procedures, and presumably could have used genetic modification.

We could, considering the sub thread, wonder why he gave them an immune system pre-fall, couldn't we?


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Faith
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From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 258 of 425 (809402)
05-18-2017 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by bluegenes
05-18-2017 10:30 AM


Re: On Adam & Eve?
Faith's going for two alleles, but God might not have used standard cloning procedures, and presumably could have used genetic modification.

I arrived at two based partly on the fact that all we can inherit from our parents is one from each, and DNA and therefore a gene is after all two strands wound together. But the Biblical fact that Eve according to Adam is "bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh" is a good reason too.

d, considering the sub thread, wonder why he gave them an immune system pre-fall, couldn't we?

Yes, I wonder those things too, but I suppose we might as well also wonder why we have a blood clotting system or a wound healing system as well.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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jar
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Posts: 29182
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 259 of 425 (809418)
05-18-2017 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by Faith
05-18-2017 10:38 AM


Re: On Adam & Eve?
Faith writes:

I arrived at two based partly on the fact that all we can inherit from our parents is one from each, and DNA and therefore a gene is after all two strands wound together.

But each strand is a mirror image of the other strand and so identical. There is no differences between the two strands that make up DNA.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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Faith
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Posts: 25795
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 260 of 425 (809422)
05-18-2017 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by jar
05-18-2017 11:28 AM


Re: On Adam & Eve?
they don't look identical to me:


This message is a reply to:
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 Message 261 by jar, posted 05-18-2017 11:52 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 263 by Taq, posted 05-18-2017 12:28 PM Faith has responded
 Message 274 by Percy, posted 05-19-2017 9:28 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
jar
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Posts: 29182
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 261 of 425 (809433)
05-18-2017 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by Faith
05-18-2017 11:38 AM


Re: On Adam & Eve?
Faith writes:

they don't look identical to me:

I don't doubt that however that is simply that you do not understand the subject.

The important thing about DNA being a helical spiral is that when it splits you end up with two identical strands. This is really very basic stuff Faith.

quote:
An important property of DNA is that it can replicate, or make copies of itself. Each strand of DNA in the double helix can serve as a pattern for duplicating the sequence of bases. This is critical when cells divide because each new cell needs to have an exact copy of the DNA present in the old cell.

source

It is the fact that each strand of DNA consists of two identical copies that allows replication.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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Taq
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Message 262 of 425 (809442)
05-18-2017 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by Percy
05-18-2017 8:05 AM


Re: The YEC model requires beneficial mutations and strong positive selection.
Percy writes:

What is a haplotype? The Wikipedia article on Haplotype offers several definitions.

Genes close to one another tend to stay together because fewer cross over events happen between them during meiosis. Therefore, some alleles on neighboring genes will stay together. For example, you may tend to see allele1 from gene A and allele 2 from gene B at a higher ratio than would be predicted by chance (i.e. a random shuffle).

As to a "composite of different haplotypes", I'm not sure exactly what they are talking about. They could be talking about a composite of DNA from different people, different strands of DNA (remember that human DNA is diploid so it has two strands), or a combination of both.

What does the little symbol between curly braces mean?

The Greek letter Psi is meant to denote pseudogenes (Psi ---> pseudo).

Does this mean that for some loci different people can have different genes instead of different alleles?

That is what it means. This usually indicates that some people will have a gene at a specific location while others just have a gap. It can also indicate a difference in copy number, such as one person having 1 geneA and other people have duplication of 2 geneA at the same position.

There are 118 (good "quick count" by you).

I counted the number across and the number of rows, so don't be too impressed.


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Taq
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Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 263 of 425 (809447)
05-18-2017 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by Faith
05-18-2017 11:38 AM


Re: On Adam & Eve?
Faith writes:

they don't look identical to me:

They look identical to a molecular biologist.

Let's use this piece of DNA as our example:


5'--GTGGACCAGT--3'
3'--CACCTGGTCA--5'

Across from each base is it's mirror image. G is the mirror image of C, C is the mirror image of G, A is the mirror image of T, and T is the mirror image of A. Think of it like your hand being held up to a mirror. If you hold your right hand up to a mirror it isn't an identical copy of your hand, but is instead a mirror image that more resembles your left hand. Your left and right hands are mirror images of each other.

The 5' and 3' denote the ends of each DNA strand, as you will see the two DNA strands go in opposite directions. The 5' and 3' come from the number of carbon atoms on the sugar that forms the backbone of DNA:

When proteins copy DNA they start at the 5' end and stop at the 3' end.

So when we copy DNA we go from the double stranded form to the single stranded forms

5'--GTGGACCAGT--3'

3'--CACCTGGTCA--5'

DNA polymerases then copy each single strand from the 5' to 3' strand, placing the mirror image of each base on the new strand. This results in two double stranded pieces of DNA:

5'--GTGGACCAGT--3'
3'--CACCTGGTCA--5'
---copy-->

<---copy--
5'--GTGGACCAGT--3'
3'--CACCTGGTCA--5'

What you end up with is two identical double strands of DNA.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


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 Message 260 by Faith, posted 05-18-2017 11:38 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 266 by Faith, posted 05-18-2017 12:43 PM Taq has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
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Posts: 11650
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Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 264 of 425 (809453)
05-18-2017 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by Taq
05-18-2017 12:28 PM


Re: On Adam & Eve?
Across from each base is it's mirror image. G is the mirror image of C, C is the mirror image of G, A is the mirror image of T, and T is the mirror image of A. Think of it like your hand being held up to a mirror. If you hold your right hand up to a mirror it isn't an identical copy of your hand, but is instead a mirror image that more resembles your left hand. Your left and right hands are mirror images of each other.

Chirality!


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 Message 263 by Taq, posted 05-18-2017 12:28 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
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Taq
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Posts: 7012
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 265 of 425 (809456)
05-18-2017 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by New Cat's Eye
05-18-2017 12:37 PM


Re: On Adam & Eve?
New Cat's Eye writes:

Chirality!

In the case of DNA bases it isn't chirality. However, mirror image serves as a good analogy even if it can be confusing if we discuss chirality. I didn't think "complementary bases" would be as easy to understand.


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Faith
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Posts: 25795
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 266 of 425 (809457)
05-18-2017 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by Taq
05-18-2017 12:28 PM


Re: On Adam & Eve?
That's beautiful. And you guys don't believe in intelligent design!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Taq, posted 05-18-2017 12:28 PM Taq has responded

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Taq
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Posts: 7012
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 267 of 425 (809459)
05-18-2017 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by Faith
05-18-2017 12:43 PM


Re: On Adam & Eve?
Faith writes:

That's beautiful. And you guys don't believe in intelligent design!

Not when we can watch this all happen right in front of us without any intelligent designer involved.


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bluegenes
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Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 268 of 425 (809475)
05-18-2017 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by Faith
05-18-2017 12:43 PM


How to not understand but still know.
Faith on another thread reffering to this one writes:

If that paper is above Percy's pay grade as he put it, it's certainly above mine. I read what I was able to read, and nothing you said gave evidence that new alleles actually exist. As I keep saying the "evidence" of supposed positive selection shown by increased frequency is an illusion if the allele in question is really a neutral mutation, which would be passed on and easily look like increased frequency based on your assumption.

You seem to think that paper actually shows that new alleles give immunity to different parasites, but it doesn't. It assumes it.

If the paper is above your head, why are you telling us what it does and doesn't show?

What did you think of the West African malaria example?


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 Message 266 by Faith, posted 05-18-2017 12:43 PM Faith has responded

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Faith
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Posts: 25795
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 269 of 425 (809482)
05-18-2017 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by bluegenes
05-18-2017 1:05 PM


Re: How to understand some but not all. Good grief
Ooooooobviously I understood some of it. Sheesh.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Taq
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Posts: 7012
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 270 of 425 (809484)
05-18-2017 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 269 by Faith
05-18-2017 1:16 PM


Re: How to understand some but not all. Good grief
Faith writes:

Ooooooobviously I understood some of it. Sheesh.

Let's see if you are able to understand this paper:

http://www.jimmunol.org/...3/11/03/jimmunol.1302101.full.pdf

It is rather straightforward. They looked at several alleles for the HLA-A and HLA-B genes. They then tested them against multiple peptides (i.e. short proteins) from the Dengue fever virus. What they found is that different alleles bound different peptides, proof that they have different functions (table 1 from the paper).

Since they were able to show that more than two alleles for each gene bound different peptides, this demonstrates that are more than two alleles for these genes as defined by function.


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Replies to this message:
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