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Author Topic:   Y.E.C. Model: Was there rapid evolution and speciation post flood?
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9816
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 361 of 425 (810766)
06-01-2017 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 357 by Faith
06-01-2017 11:55 AM


Re: Not trashed at all, in fact falling more clearly into place
It seems clear to me that the insistence on its normality and health is based only on belief in the ToE, even acceptance of the incredible sloppiness of the system due to mistake after mistake after mistake.

Saying something is clear is not an argument. You are simply doubling down on an assertion.

The multiple alleles do nothing good for a species.

Except when they do. To the extent diversity is a good "dna-survival" strategy, multiple alleles accomplishes just that. It is not perfect, but it works well enough that we can observe multiple alleles in the human population and in others.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 357 by Faith, posted 06-01-2017 11:55 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 362 by Faith, posted 06-01-2017 12:33 PM NoNukes has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 25902
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 362 of 425 (810767)
06-01-2017 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 361 by NoNukes
06-01-2017 12:25 PM


Re: Not trashed at all, in fact falling more clearly into place
Except when they do. To the extent diversity is a good "dna-survival" strategy, multiple alleles accomplishes just that.

What led me to the two-allele gene was the recognition that it is sufficient to produce all the diversity that exists and then some. That makes multiple alleles at least unnecessary.

It is not perfect, but it works well enough that we can observe multiple alleles in the human population and in others.

And if this is the illusion I think it is, based on the fact that it so far manages not to be overtly and immediately destructive, and that its displacement of an original better system is hidden by these facts, even though it actually allows more diseases than it protects against, you can go along being deceived by it for quite some time.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 361 by NoNukes, posted 06-01-2017 12:25 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 365 by NoNukes, posted 06-01-2017 1:09 PM Faith has responded
 Message 422 by Taq, posted 06-07-2017 11:48 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4600
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 363 of 425 (810768)
06-01-2017 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 360 by jar
06-01-2017 12:09 PM


Re: falling into place
Jar writes:

I have no intention or desire to convert you or anyone else Mike as you well know. You are free to continue to believe whatever nonsense you wish.

I love it when people don't understand that if you beg-the-question twice it becomes argumentum ad nauseam fallacy.

Now you've SAID (and the operative word is, "SAID") twice that what we believe is nonsense, and you now incredibly said it a third time in the following statement, and added a new epithet; (Lol)

Jar writes:

If I ever post that then we can discuss it but until then it just gets tossed into the trashcan with the rest of the nonsense creationists post.

The "rest" of the, "nonsense".

So now you add the "rest" of what we say, which we also must take for granted is true because the great Jar-god has stated it.

No arrogance there then.

Is this really all you have to offer then? Basically your message is giving me this theme; "that's it mike, that's all I've got, I am going to use words and insults and simply assert things about creationists all the evolutionists will agree with me."

Fair enough Jar, if you are saying you have no intellectual integrity and are incapable of being wrong then at least I know there is no point in conversing with you about anything whatsoever, since I just represent a target for you, one who is guilty-as-charged, with the crime of creationism, and one who will get the Jar-epithets fired at him because he represents that position.

No hatred or prejudice there then. Lol.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 360 by jar, posted 06-01-2017 12:09 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 364 by jar, posted 06-01-2017 12:42 PM mike the wiz has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29187
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 364 of 425 (810769)
06-01-2017 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 363 by mike the wiz
06-01-2017 12:35 PM


Re: falling into place
Mike writes:

Fair enough Jar, if you are saying you have no intellectual integrity and are incapable of being wrong then at least I know there is no point in conversing with you about anything whatsoever, since I just represent a target for you, one who is guilty-as-charged, with the crime of creationism, and one who will get the Jar-epithets fired at him because he represents that position.

No hatred or prejudice there then. Lol.

Okay Mike. As I have said you are free to believe whatever you want.

Creationism though is not a crime; it is simply silly and wrong. No hatred of either you or creationism, neither rises to a level much higher than mild humor.

Young Earth and Special Creation are both refuted even by the Bible itself since there are two mutually exclusive creation myths just as there are two mutually exclusive flood myths in the very stories.

Creationism and Young Earth are as dead and worthless as flat earth or trolls under the bridges but fortunately you can still believe in such things. Just don't get surprised when other kinda chuckle.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 363 by mike the wiz, posted 06-01-2017 12:35 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 368 by mike the wiz, posted 06-01-2017 3:17 PM jar has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9816
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 365 of 425 (810771)
06-01-2017 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 362 by Faith
06-01-2017 12:33 PM


Re: Not trashed at all, in fact falling more clearly into place
What led me to the two-allele gene was the recognition that it is sufficient to produce all the diversity that exists and then some. That makes multiple alleles at least unnecessary.

Quite obviously two-alleles provides less diversity than is possible with three alleles, and in some cases we know we have more. Your "sufficiency" is a sham.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by Faith, posted 06-01-2017 12:33 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 366 by Faith, posted 06-01-2017 2:07 PM NoNukes has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 25902
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 366 of 425 (810781)
06-01-2017 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 365 by NoNukes
06-01-2017 1:09 PM


Re: Not trashed at all, in fact falling more clearly into place
Quite obviously two-alleles provides less diversity than is possible with three alleles, and in some cases we know we have more. Your "sufficiency" is a sham.

I'm talking about a system of many genes with two alleles. The MHC system has 240 genes, eye color and skin color have half a dozen or more genes. The combinations possible are enormous, creating great diversity. Just two genes for the range of skin color produces all the skin colors we see from black to white, the other genes probably give intermediate shades.

An extra allele in most cases, based on what we know about mutations, is either going to produce the same protein as the original or it's going to do something destructive. If it does do something different it will nevertheless be something that is done by some gene in the system; there is no need for anything new, and the likelihood of getting something truly new and functional is about zero.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 365 by NoNukes, posted 06-01-2017 1:09 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 367 by NoNukes, posted 06-01-2017 3:03 PM Faith has responded
 Message 391 by Percy, posted 06-02-2017 8:46 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9816
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 367 of 425 (810787)
06-01-2017 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 366 by Faith
06-01-2017 2:07 PM


Re: Not trashed at all, in fact falling more clearly into place
'm talking about a system of many genes with two alleles.

Sigh. I suppose I need to spell out the obvious...

We don't have to choose between those. We have both a system where multiple genes can affect some traits and a system where some traits are determined by multiple alleles at one location and some combinations of the two for things like skin color and eye color. The problem with your argument is that the multiple allele portions of reality are incompatible with an Adam and Eve scenario and in some cases even the post-Noah scenario unless beneficial mutations are allowed. Now that you have conceded that point, you have weakened one of your arguments against evolution. Namely that there are no such things as beneficial mutations.

So you are wrong. Adding alleles to the multiple gene situation increases diversity. Even if there were an exact duplication of a multi-gene phenotype, and generally there is not, there become multiple pathways to reach advantageous phenotypes. And that two counts as diversity and more rigor. And of course. in at least some cases, new advantages are realized.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by Faith, posted 06-01-2017 2:07 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 378 by Faith, posted 06-01-2017 7:23 PM NoNukes has responded

    
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4600
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 368 of 425 (810788)
06-01-2017 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 364 by jar
06-01-2017 12:42 PM


Re: falling into place
Jar's colourful buz-word rant writes:

Okay Mike. As I have said you are free to believe whatever you want.

Creationism though is not a crime; it is simply silly and wrong. No hatred of either you or creationism, neither rises to a level much higher than mild humor.

Young Earth and Special Creation are both refuted even by the Bible itself since there are two mutually exclusive creation myths just as there are two mutually exclusive flood myths in the very stories.

Creationism and Young Earth are as dead and worthless as flat earth or trolls under the bridges but fortunately you can still believe in such things. Just don't get surprised when other kinda chuckle.

And the award for the post most packed with question-begging-epithets goes to...............

(as highlighted)

Jar, can I just ask you a question out of polite interest? Do you know the function of a discussion board, and how a debate is supposed to work?

For example do you think that when someone says something, they shouldn't have to provide any supporting evidence, or supporting reasons for why they infer that thing? Because if debate is just about saying things, asserting things, then isn't that just a way of not proving anything, but getting some kind of pleasure from simply calling people things? Does this strike you as something terribly clever, tactically speaking?

Okay you've had fun calling creationists/ism things. Okay then. Very mature.

Jar, I am sorry to disappoint you but if someone comes up to me in the street and puts a label on me saying, "female" that won't mean that I have female genitalia so why on earth would I care?

yes, I quite understand, creationism and creationists clearly affect you in some way and terribly annoy you in a way inconsistent with your attitudes to other beliefs. It is a wonder for you always seemed to be a pluralist and would recommend various religions and creeds of all types and diversity and speak of them with a kind of fondness as though recommending I believe in them, but it seems there is one particular creed/belief you really do have a prejudice towards, and that is the belief that the Lord God really did create the universe.

That's why I use the term, "crime of creationism". It is sarcasm, because it is a dig at the way some evolutionists treat creationists, with the kind of contempt most people might only reserve for Bundy or Hitler.

I mean when it comes down to it, what is so repulsive to you about believing God created all of the wonderful things in nature? Is this something worthy of insult, even though I am not harming anyone else by believing this? Arguably a materialistic tornado-in-a-junkyard creating a 747 jet, is at least as absurd and worthy of derision, and both worldviews could play the derision-game.

Scientists have created a story of history and some don't accept that story and believe the circumstantial evidence they use to confirm and even incorrectly affirm that viewpoint, is inadequate. That's all. We can still be adults about it, I say.

But you know, if you get a kick out of it and it's the highlight of the day, by all means use my post yet again as a launchpad for more buz-words.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 364 by jar, posted 06-01-2017 12:42 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 369 by jar, posted 06-01-2017 3:34 PM mike the wiz has responded
 Message 421 by Taq, posted 06-07-2017 11:46 AM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29187
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 369 of 425 (810790)
06-01-2017 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 368 by mike the wiz
06-01-2017 3:17 PM


Re: falling into place
Mike writes:

yes, I quite understand, creationism and creationists clearly affect you in some way and terribly annoy you in a way inconsistent with your attitudes to other beliefs. It is a wonder for you always seemed to be a pluralist and would recommend various religions and creeds of all types and diversity and speak of them with a kind of fondness as though recommending I believe in them, but it seems there is one particular creed/belief you really do have a prejudice towards, and that is the belief that the Lord God really did create the universe.

Yawn.

Come on Mike, I am a Christian and so yes I believe that God created the universe. But I know for a fact that it was certainly not done as depicted in the Bible myths.

And Creationism does not annoy me any more than the little kid that can't go to sleep unless I look under the bed to make sure nothing is hiding there. But Creationism and in particular Young Earth Creationism is simply as silly and childish as fearing the monster under the bed.

Mike writes:

That's why I use the term, "crime of creationism". It is sarcasm, because it is a dig at the way some evolutionists treat creationists, with the kind of contempt most people might only reserve for Bundy or Hitler.

And of course you are just making shit up there Mike as always. The reaction to Creationism is not contempt, rather one of humor and a knowing chuckle.

Mike writes:

I mean when it comes down to it, what is so repulsive to you about believing God created all of the wonderful things in nature? Is this something worthy of insult, even though I am not harming anyone else by believing this? Arguably a materialistic tornado-in-a-junkyard creating a 747 jet, is at least as absurd and worthy of derision, and both worldviews could play the derision-game.

Nothing about believing God created all, seen and unseen is repulsive to me. And certainly yes, only a Creationist conman could even create something as silly and worthy of derision as nonsense of tornado-in-a-junkyard creating a 747 jet.

It is the idea that the creation myths that are found in the Bible were ever meant to be taken seriously or factually that I find so silly.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 368 by mike the wiz, posted 06-01-2017 3:17 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 370 by mike the wiz, posted 06-01-2017 3:41 PM jar has responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4600
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 370 of 425 (810791)
06-01-2017 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 369 by jar
06-01-2017 3:34 PM


Re: falling into place
Jar writes:

And certainly yes, only a Creationist conman could even create something as silly and worthy of derision as nonsense of tornado-in-a-junkyard creating a 747 jet.

Lol. Sticks and stones won't break mikey's bones, my lad.

The 747 example is just meant to compare the specified complexity of an object, because to believe all the design came to exist randomly and materialistically by chance is a similar belief. I didn't mean to offend your atheistic beliefs, I was just saying that typically it is a subjective matter the things people find absurd.

To just conclude something is false because it is absurdly unbelievable, is an argument from incredulity.

My point wasn't to attack an atheist worldview, in many ways I can appreciate the sentiment of the facts it might explain. My point was that you have people of two positions; theism and atheism, and both could mock each other and make a case as to why each respective scenario is absurd. Naturally all atheists will I suppose see a theistic scenario as absurd. That's not something they can help, they genuinely find it unbelievable, and theists find it unbelievable that for no reason at all a cell, which is as complex as a city, and riddled with all types of designed things, would create itself for no reason then eventually lead to giraffes, fleas, bees, cheese and hairy knees.

So what I was saying is that anyone can play your game.

But I noticed you didn't answer any of my questions. Does that mean you don't have any specific answers to those things I put to you?

Okay then.

Jar writes:

And of course you are just making shit up there Mike as always

Creativity is the greatest tool and why we are made in His image, My lad.

Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 369 by jar, posted 06-01-2017 3:34 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 371 by jar, posted 06-01-2017 4:00 PM mike the wiz has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29187
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 371 of 425 (810792)
06-01-2017 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 370 by mike the wiz
06-01-2017 3:41 PM


Re: falling into place
Mike writes:

But I noticed you didn't answer any of my questions. Does that mean you don't have any specific answers to those things I put to you?

Sorry but I haven't seen anything resembling a real question from you.

Try again.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 370 by mike the wiz, posted 06-01-2017 3:41 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 372 by mike the wiz, posted 06-01-2017 4:13 PM jar has responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4600
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 372 of 425 (810793)
06-01-2017 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 371 by jar
06-01-2017 4:00 PM


Re: falling into place
jar writes:

Sorry but I haven't seen anything resembling a real question from you.

Try again.

I asked you if you know that a debate should consist of some type of support of your assertions more than just the assertion itself, with reasoning and evidence.

Your response was to create a post full of assertions and insults.

That answers all of my questions.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 371 by jar, posted 06-01-2017 4:00 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 373 by jar, posted 06-01-2017 4:17 PM mike the wiz has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29187
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 373 of 425 (810795)
06-01-2017 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 372 by mike the wiz
06-01-2017 4:13 PM


Re: falling into place
Yup, as I said, no reasonable questions.

Mike, any reasonable debate about Young Earth or Creationism has been over for several hundred years.

The reality and facts are settled.

There is no YEC model.

There was no Biblical Flood.

Genesis tales are folk tales, myths and "Just So Stories".


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 372 by mike the wiz, posted 06-01-2017 4:13 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 374 by mike the wiz, posted 06-01-2017 4:28 PM jar has responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4600
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 374 of 425 (810797)
06-01-2017 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 373 by jar
06-01-2017 4:17 PM


Re: falling into place
Jar writes:

Yup, as I said, no reasonable questions.
Mike, any reasonable debate about Young Earth or Creationism has been over for several hundred years.

The reality and facts are settled.

There is no YEC model.

There was no Biblical Flood.

Genesis tales are folk tales, myths and "Just So Stories".

So the answer is there isn't anything more to debate to your mind than assertions, of which you have now provided some more?

"I'm sorry your honour, he doesn't seem to understand the question can I re-phrase it? .....can you provide an argument as to the dozen or so claims you have made in this thread other than to just SAY them?"

Judge; "Over-ruled, the witness is clearly high on drugs or something, we shall go no further with this line of questioning...can't you tell mikey lawyer, you're simply a silly person that only accepts nonsense and are equatable to a flat earth believer because the witness says so. hahaha."

*the People laugh*

mikey; "that's great news for when I plead innocence in my murder case next week, now don't forget your honour, when my client says he's innocent, he SAID that he was innocent so you must let him go free."

*the people laugh*


This message is a reply to:
 Message 373 by jar, posted 06-01-2017 4:17 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 375 by jar, posted 06-01-2017 4:31 PM mike the wiz has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29187
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 375 of 425 (810798)
06-01-2017 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 374 by mike the wiz
06-01-2017 4:28 PM


Re: falling into place
Mike writes:

So the answer is there isn't anything more to debate to your mind than assertions, of which you have now provided some more?

"I'm sorry your honour, he doesn't seem to understand the question can I re-phrase it? .....can you provide an argument as to the dozen or so claims you have made in this thread other than to just SAY them?"

Judge; "Over-ruled, the witness is clearly high on drugs or something, we shall go no further with this line of questioning...can't you tell mikey lawyer, you're simply a silly person that only accepts nonsense and are equatable to a flat earth believer because the witness says so. hahaha."

*the People laugh*

mikey; "that's great news for when I plead innocence in my murder case next week, now don't forget your honour, when my client says he's innocent, he SAID that he was innocent so you must let him go free."

*the people laugh*

And Mike posts all he has ever posted, word salad and mental masturbation.

Reality wins Mike and Creationists NEVER post anything related to reality.

Perhaps if a there is ever a Creationist who post anything even remotely related to evidence then there will be something reasonable to debate.

Until then, enjoy your fantasies.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 374 by mike the wiz, posted 06-01-2017 4:28 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 376 by mike the wiz, posted 06-01-2017 4:41 PM jar has responded

  
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