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Author Topic:   Y.E.C. Model: Was there rapid evolution and speciation post flood?
Percy
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Posts: 16033
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 391 of 425 (810855)
06-02-2017 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 366 by Faith
06-01-2017 2:07 PM


Re: Not trashed at all, in fact falling more clearly into place
Faith writes:

The MHC system has 240 genes, eye color and skin color have half a dozen or more genes.

But some genes of the MHC system have more than 200 alleles at frequencies too high to have occurred with an original two alleles per gene a mere 6000 years ago.

An extra allele in most cases, based on what we know about mutations, is either going to produce the same protein as the original or it's going to do something destructive.

Or it's going to produce something beneficial.

If it does do something different it will nevertheless be something that is done by some gene in the system;...there is no need for anything new, and the likelihood of getting something truly new and functional is about zero.

This bare assertion is obviously false. Even your own argument that a new allele could be deleterious argues against this, since a deleterious allele that is lethal couldn't already exist in the organism.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by Faith, posted 06-01-2017 2:07 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
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Posts: 26449
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 392 of 425 (810856)
06-02-2017 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 387 by Percy
06-02-2017 8:11 AM


Re: falling into place
Percy writes:

Faith writes:

Yes, it is interesting that evolution allows for all that sloppiness so that it can't be easily used as evidence against it.

"Evolution" is just the term we apply to what we observe in nature.

Not really, it is a theory that is imposed on nature so consistently that you think you are observing it.

Percy writes:

You can't argue that evolution must be wrong because so much sloppiness wouldn't work, because that is exactly what we observe working.

Yes as I said to jar I know because it is accepted as normal by the ToE it can't be used as evidence against it. Even if I can't argue it here I can still think it and I do. The sloppiness that seems to work in nature, like all those mutant alleles that are really a confused mess of different functions, manage to work sort-of, I agree; some of them in the immune system manage to protect against disease when they encounter it. But if you are just looking at those facts you may miss the larger picture that they are displacing what was once a far more efficient immune system. Because of the Fall, which only a creationist is going to see unfortunately, the fact that things continue to function at all is a great blessing, but those who see the ToE as expressing the normal way things operate will completely miss the big picture of overall degeneration and take a highly compromised and broken functioning for the best possible.

Percy writes:

Faith writes:

Probability alone suggests such inefficiency couldn't produce a single living cell let alone the complex living systems that exist, but aficionados will not be persuaded against their dear theory.

Now you're talking about the origin of life, not evolution.

OK. How about "such inefficiency can't reliably protect against any given disease."

Percy writes:

Faith writes:

I wonder how much more extinction and death it might take for the establishment to stop to consider maybe they are calling a disease process normal.

Mutations are both a blessing and a curse. They are what sustains variety and drives change, but they also cause disease and death.

That would be a very good statement of exactly what I mean by the effects of the Fall, except that I strongly dispute the idea that they sustain variety and drive change. Strongly dispute it. I may agree in the case of the immune system that they are better than some other things they are known to do since at least some of them offer some protection against disease. But overall the idea that they do anything so positive as sustain variety and drive change is that article of faith based on the ToE again. Variety and change are both built into the original DNA, in those two-allele genes of multiple-gene systems; it's very efficient when not garbled up by mutations.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 387 by Percy, posted 06-02-2017 8:11 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 393 by JonF, posted 06-02-2017 9:33 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 395 by Percy, posted 06-02-2017 9:49 AM Faith has responded
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JonF
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Posts: 3969
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 393 of 425 (810859)
06-02-2017 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 392 by Faith
06-02-2017 8:56 AM


Re: falling into place
"Evolution" is just the term we apply to what we observe in nature.

Not really, it is a theory that is imposed on nature so consistently that you think you are observing it.

Like many words, "Evolution" ha smore than one meaning, depending on context.

quote:
Definition of evolution
1: one of a set of prescribed movements
2a : a process of change in a certain direction : unfolding
b : the action or an instance of forming and giving something off : emission
c (1) : a process of continuous change from a lower, simpler, or worse to a higher, more complex, or better state : growth (2) : a process of gradual and relatively peaceful social, political, and economic advance
d : something evolved
3: the process of working out or developing
4a : descent with modification from preexisting species : cumulative inherited change in a population of organisms through time leading to the appearance of new forms : the process by which new species or populations of living things develop from preexisting forms through successive generations
Evolution is a process of continuous branching and diversification from common trunks. This pattern of irreversible separation gives life's history its basic directionality. — Stephen Jay Gould
; also : the scientific theory explaining the appearance of new species and varieties through the action of various biological mechanisms (such as natural selection, genetic mutation or drift, and hybridization)
Since 1950, developments in molecular biology have had a growing influence on the theory of evolution. — Nature
In Darwinian evolution, the basic mechanism is genetic mutation, followed by selection of the organisms most likely to survive. — Pamela Weintraub
b : the historical development of a biological group (such as a race or species) : phylogeny
5 : the extraction of a mathematical root
6 : a process in which the whole universe is a progression of interrelated phenomena

Percy used it in the sense of 4a, a process which we observe.

You are using it in the sense of 4a(also), the theory about how the observed process happens.

Not that it'll make any difference to you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by Faith, posted 06-02-2017 8:56 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Percy
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Posts: 16033
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 394 of 425 (810860)
06-02-2017 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 389 by Faith
06-02-2017 8:33 AM


Re: falling into place
Faith writes:

If there are many alleles per gene any given allele, even if "relatively" high frequency, is going to be relatively rare in the population as a whole because of sharing the field with so many others.

It isn't said what high frequency means in numbers or percentages either. In some contexts 5% could be high frequency.

Bluegenes would have to confirm, but I'd guess that anything above a percent or so is a relatively high frequency in the population. Here is Bluegene's list of the HLA-A (Human Leukocyte Antigen) allele frequencies from Cuban's with a dengue 2 virus infection history from Message 66:

HLAGene Frequency (%)
A*0222.7
A*3010.6
A*249.5
A*688.0
A*037.0
A*296.5
A*235.5
A*015.5
A*314.5
A*743.5
A*333.0
A*322.5
A*342.0
A*362.0
A*251.5
A*261.5
A*661.5
A*111.0
A*801.0

At the known human mutation rate there has not been enough time since Adam and Eve for all these alleles to arise, let alone spread through the population.

Also, as I argued way back on the thread, the frequency would be an illusion if the alleles are neutral mutations that produce the same phenotype as the allele they displaced, since they will simply be passed on without impediment. Selection in this case can't be a factor.

It is known that they bind to different antigens.

...meaning that the whole collection of mutant alleles is not a good thing for the function of the immune system because it scatters the protective effects in the population.

The meaning is the opposite, that the distribution of "protective" alleles throughout the population is a good thing. It provides protection of at least some individuals from a wide variety of threats so that the population has a lessened chance of being wiped out, and there's the benefit of herd immunity when the proportion of the population that is protected is high.

It is assumed under the ToE that the mutant alleles do something new and useful;

No, it is not assumed. As described several times now for the HLA genes, the alleles bind to different antigens.

My point was about mutations in general -- there is an enormous number of genetic diseases they've brought about that persist in the population...

Genetic disorders can only persist in the population if they don't prevent reproduction, and as the Wikipedia article on Genetic Disorders tells us:

quote:
Most genetic disorders are quite rare and affect one person in every several thousands or millions.

In other words, unlike the frequencies in Bluegenes table which were at least 1%, most genetic disorders have low frequencies that range from roughly between 0.00002% and 0.02%.

And some of this is demonstrable I'm sure; but a lot of it is just an article of faith based on the ToE and not a known reality.

It is all demonstrable. What we know about evolution is based upon observation of nature.

Is this demonstrable in relation to these mutant alleles or just a wishful statement in any given case?

Herd immunity is well understood. The protection to the entire herd is a function of the proportion of individuals in a population with immunity or some level of protection. As the Wikipedia article on Herd Immunity tells us:

quote:
The greater the proportion of individuals in a community who are immune, the smaller the probability that those who are not immune will come into contact with an infectious individual.

When the proportion with protective alleles is too small to provide herd immunity then at least some individuals are protected and the population survives with fewer individuals, but now with a very high frequency for the protective alleles.

But as I keep saying, if the original immune system had all the beneficial alleles that are now out there in the form of mutants, it would have had a much more reliable and concentrated protective effect because possessed by all individuals.

This is true. Were it so then disease immunity would be much more effective. Unfortunately, it isn't what we observe.

However, if the herd effect does apply I'll take that into account.

I'd take it into account only for protective alleles with a very high frequency.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 389 by Faith, posted 06-02-2017 8:33 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 399 by NoNukes, posted 06-02-2017 1:21 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 402 by Faith, posted 06-02-2017 5:38 PM Percy has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 16033
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.1


(2)
Message 395 of 425 (810861)
06-02-2017 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 392 by Faith
06-02-2017 8:56 AM


Re: falling into place
Faith writes:

Not really, it is a theory that is imposed on nature so consistently that you think you are observing it.

All the facts we've provided to you in this thread reflect what has been observed.

But if you are just looking at those facts you may miss the larger picture that they are displacing what was once a far more efficient immune system.

There is no evidence of this in our genome. And as has been pointed out to you several times, there has been insufficient time since Adam and Eve for all the alleles we observe to arise and persist at the frequencies we observe.

Because of the Fall, which only a creationist is going to see unfortunately, the fact that things continue to function at all is a great blessing,...

The creationist doesn't see it, he only believes it. There is no real-world evidence of a Fall, and the ad hoc nature of the way our genes work is just what one would expect from chance and selection.

OK. How about "such inefficiency can't reliably protect against any given disease."

Except that it does work reliably enough (in the absence of antibiotics and vaccines) to keep the human race alive, which is all evolution attempts to achieve.

I may agree in the case of the immune system that they are better than some other things they are known to do since at least some of them offer some protection against disease.

They exist in the population at too high a frequency to do little or nothing. Strong selection is at work.

Variety and change are both built into the original DNA, in those two-allele genes of multiple-gene systems; it's very efficient when not garbled up by mutations.

It isn't possible for what we observe in our genome today to have arisen and distributed throughout the population in a mere 6000 years from an original two alleles per gene.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by Faith, posted 06-02-2017 8:56 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 401 by Faith, posted 06-02-2017 5:35 PM Percy has responded

    
jar
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Posts: 29444
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 396 of 425 (810862)
06-02-2017 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 389 by Faith
06-02-2017 8:33 AM


Re: falling into place
Faith writes:

But as I keep saying, if the original immune system had all the beneficial alleles that are now out there in the form of mutants, it would have had a much more reliable and concentrated protective effect because possessed by all individuals.

Except Faith, evidence including DNA from modern humans that would have been alive before and at the time Adam would have been alive show that your imagined scenario is simply wrong.

Reality trumps fantasy even if the fantasy is a Bible story.

What is needed is those YECs claiming to be scientists to produce DNA evidence from humans that would have been contemporary or before Adam that show any such Super Genome.

But they haven't.

And it does not exist.

And YEC is as dead a concept as the "Fall™" or "The Flood™".


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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NoNukes
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Posts: 9997
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 397 of 425 (810875)
06-02-2017 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 392 by Faith
06-02-2017 8:56 AM


Re: falling into place
Not really, it is a theory that is imposed on nature so consistently that you think you are observing it.

This is yet another keeper...


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by Faith, posted 06-02-2017 8:56 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
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Posts: 9997
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 398 of 425 (810877)
06-02-2017 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 390 by herebedragons
06-02-2017 8:42 AM


Re: Multiple Alleles an Inefficient System
God created Adam and Eve with all the necessary genes and alleles to allow their immune system to fight off any pathogen that may attempt to invade their bodies.

With said necessary alleles being no more than two per gene...


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Not really, it is a theory that is imposed on nature so consistently that you think you are observing it. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 390 by herebedragons, posted 06-02-2017 8:42 AM herebedragons has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9997
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 399 of 425 (810878)
06-02-2017 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 394 by Percy
06-02-2017 9:36 AM


Re: falling into place
At the known human mutation rate there has not been enough time since Adam and Eve for all these alleles to arise, let alone spread through the population

Which suggest that the creation theory does require rapid evolution, but perhaps not speciation based on this line of argument. Maybe Faith can agree with that at least?

[ snip lots of things said very well and that I agree with ]

It is known that they bind to different antigens.

Where "they" (I think) means the anti-bodies produced as a result of a particular genetic makeup. The antecedent for "they" does not appear in this message and does not readily appear in the message sequence.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Not really, it is a theory that is imposed on nature so consistently that you think you are observing it. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 394 by Percy, posted 06-02-2017 9:36 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26449
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 400 of 425 (810885)
06-02-2017 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 390 by herebedragons
06-02-2017 8:42 AM


Re: Multiple Alleles an Inefficient System
I have not been following this discussion super close because I just have not had time to. But I want to see if I understand your scenario and can put it into a clear narrative.

God created Adam and Eve with all the necessary genes and alleles to allow their immune system to fight off any pathogen that may attempt to invade their bodies. But because of the fall, mutations began to be introduced into an otherwise perfectly functioning system. As pathogens mutated they began to overcome the human immune system (through loss of information, of course) and they were then able to cause disease. As the human immune system began to mutate, the distribution of alleles became diluted and so a smaller and smaller proportion of people had a fully functioning immune system. Occasionally, a mutation in an immune system component would allow it to defend against a newer form of a pathogen, but this is an extremely rare exception.

Is this a good summary?

I hadn't thought it through in such detail, and I'm really only now trying to work out what I think the original created systems were, but to respond piece by piece to your statement:

God created Adam and Eve with all the necessary genes and alleles to allow their immune system to fight off any pathogen that may attempt to invade their bodies.

Yes.

But because of the fall, mutations began to be introduced into an otherwise perfectly functioning system.

And pathogens mutated. I'm not sure which came first, maybe more or less a simultaneous occurrence. Mutating pathogens could already be a problem if the system wasn't originally designed to deal with them, but I don't have a clear idea of whether it could or not.

As pathogens mutated they began to overcome the human immune system (through loss of information, of course) and they were then able to cause disease.

I don't see how loss of information comes into this. That's the result of evolution, the creation of new phenotypes by the loss of alleles. Mutated pathogens along with mutations to the immune system seem to me to both contribute to the loss of disease protection.

As the human immune system began to mutate, the distribution of alleles became diluted and so a smaller and smaller proportion of people had a fully functioning immune system.

More like: The mutations alter the original alleles, which were two per gene, and most of these would be neutral, not changing the phenotype or the action against a particular disease, and as these mutations accumulated, especially if there were many for a single gene, their effects would become scattered in the population making for a hit or miss system of protection against a particular disease. I suppose this implies that a smaller proportion of people would have a fully functioning immune system but I hadn't thought of it quite that way. It would depend partly on how many of the mutant alleles continue to do what the originals did. And since I'm doubtful that the mutant alleles would do anything truly novel I'm not sure I think they could really deal with new pathogens anyway. It could be that ability was already in the original system, however, and is now scattered through the population as other alleles proliferate at the same gene.

Occasionally, a mutation in an immune system component would allow it to defend against a newer form of a pathogen, but this is an extremely rare exception.

Well, but if there are many neutral mutations, meaning alleles that don't change the phenotype, they would continue to defend against diseases, whatever diseases the original protected against. For something truly new I would suppose it to be an extremely rare occurrence, yes.

I wasn't aiming to try to reconstruct the immune system but those are my guesses. I originally wanted to resolve the issue of Adam and Eve needing extra alleles and came to the conclusion that they didn't and also didn't even need the maximum possible four, just two per gene. That was a big discovery for me. That would mean that instead of the maximum possible on the Ark, which would have to have involved mutations at some earlier point, each gene in each individual would have had two alleles, but also greater heterozygosity than we have today, that being enough to create all the diversity that followed.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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 Message 390 by herebedragons, posted 06-02-2017 8:42 AM herebedragons has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26449
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 401 of 425 (810887)
06-02-2017 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 395 by Percy
06-02-2017 9:49 AM


Re: falling into place
There is no evidence of this in our genome. And as has been pointed out to you several times, there has been insufficient time since Adam and Eve for all the alleles we observe to arise and persist at the frequencies we observe.

Not if the immune system is one of those regions that is particularly vulnerable to mutations, which the enormous number of them suggests is the case although someone here denied this somewhere on the thread; and if the great majority of them are neutral, not changing the phenotype, which means they would have high frequency without selection.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 395 by Percy, posted 06-02-2017 9:49 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 26449
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 402 of 425 (810888)
06-02-2017 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 394 by Percy
06-02-2017 9:36 AM


Re: falling into place
It is known that they bind to different antigens.

How many?
Which?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 394 by Percy, posted 06-02-2017 9:36 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 404 by Percy, posted 06-03-2017 8:34 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 16033
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 403 of 425 (810934)
06-03-2017 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 401 by Faith
06-02-2017 5:35 PM


Re: falling into place
Faith writes:

Not if the immune system is one of those regions that is particularly vulnerable to mutations,...

There is no evidence that the genes driving the immune system are "particularly vulnerable to mutations".

...which the enormous number of them suggests is the case although someone here denied this somewhere on the thread;...

The large number of different alleles at a high frequency is an indication of selection pressures.

...and if the great majority of them are neutral,...

They are not neutral. They bind to different antigens.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 401 by Faith, posted 06-02-2017 5:35 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 16033
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 404 of 425 (810935)
06-03-2017 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 402 by Faith
06-02-2017 5:38 PM


Re: falling into place
Here is the table of alleles I presented in Message 321 that comes from the Wikipedia article on the HLA-B gene. The different alleles are distinguished from one another because they bind to different antigens:

B5Measles seropositivity
B7Measles seropositivity
B8Measles seronegativity
B13Measles seronegativity
B27HIV protection
Autoimmunity
Psoriasis
Ankylosing spondylitis
Inflammatory bowel disease
Reactive arthritis
B35HIV susceptibility
B37Immune system
B41Immune system
B42Immune system
B44Measles seronegativity
B46Rice farming association
B47Adrenal 21-hydroxylase deficiency
B48Immune system
B51Measles seropositivity
Behçet's disease
B52Ulcerative colitis
Takayasu's arteritis
B53Immune system
B59Immune system
B67Immune system
B73Immune system
B78Immune system
B81Immune system
B*82Immune system
B*83Immune system

And here's a list of HLA-A genes from Bluegenes for HLA allele frequencies from Cuban's with a dengue 2 virus infection history that I previously presented in Message 394:

HLAGene Frequency (%)
A*0222.7
A*3010.6
A*249.5
A*688.0
A*037.0
A*296.5
A*235.5
A*015.5
A*314.5
A*743.5
A*333.0
A*322.5
A*342.0
A*362.0
A*251.5
A*261.5
A*661.5
A*111.0
A*801.0

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 402 by Faith, posted 06-02-2017 5:38 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 36 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 405 of 425 (810943)
06-03-2017 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 385 by Faith
06-02-2017 6:01 AM


YEC requires selection on mutants
Faith writes:

I think that "new functional information" is wishful and not real -- the idea that all these extra alleles are not only needed but actually formed to deal with constantly changing pathogens is logical and pretty but statistically impossible, the Just-So story I mentioned earlier. There seems to be some hit or miss positive function left, that's the best that can be said of it. (I also don't see selection playing anywhere near the big role the ToE gives it.)

Faith, you're arguing on the wrong side. It is the YEC model which requires particularly strong selection on lots of these alleles. In an old biosphere, weaker balancing selection and drift is fine for the model, but not for YEC.

I'll explain. On pure neutral evolution, after 300 generations, individuals would vary from Adam and Eve on about 1% of their protein coding genes. So, if we look at the alleles of one specific gene in 100 people, an average result would be A&Eve's alleles+1. But we could, by chance find anything from A&E's +0,1,2,3 or even 4. That would give a maximum of 6 if A&E had 2, and 8 if they had 4. In a small percentage of genes, one of the extras might be present in several members of the sample (if it had been present at the flood bottleneck).

So, anything from 1 to 8 alleles on a gene in a sample population of 100 could conceivably be accounted for by drift (neutral evolution) in the YEC model.

Here's something easy to understand (the abstract will do):

HLA-A and HLA-B alleles found in 92 people from Camaroon

quote:

To examine the genetic diversity in west Africa, class I HLA-A and HLA-B alleles of 92 unrelated individuals from two areas in the Cameroon, the capital Yaounde´ and the village of Etoa, were identified by direct automated DNA sequencing of exons 2 and 3 of the HLA-B locus alleles and sequence-specific oligonucleotide probe (SSOP) and/or sequencing of the HLA-A locus alleles. HLA-A*2301 (18.7%), A*2902 (10.4%), B*5301 (10.9%), and B*5802 (10.9%) were the most frequently detected alleles, present in at least 10% of the population. A total of 30 HLA-A locus and 33 HLA-B locus alleles, including six novel alleles, were detected.


This thread's favourite gene., HLA-B, weighs in at a whopping 33.

If you found 33 alleles scattered amongst several thousand people, that could be fitted into a YEC neutral model, but not in 92 people.

So it is the YEC model that requires very strong selection on lots of new alleles that couldn't have been present in Adam and Eve, not the "evo" model.

Edited by bluegenes, : trivia


This message is a reply to:
 Message 385 by Faith, posted 06-02-2017 6:01 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 406 by Faith, posted 06-03-2017 3:46 PM bluegenes has responded

  
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