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Author Topic:   What is Creationism?
Taq
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Posts: 6439
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.3


(1)
Message 31 of 74 (809106)
05-16-2017 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by CRR
05-16-2017 8:28 AM


Re: Creationism whatever some group wants it to be.
CRR writes:

So would you classify these as Creationist? They express points of view that I as a Creationist don't agree with.

1. There is a deity that created a self-sufficient world, which functions virtually independently from God's influences.

2. God created the genes that tell a flower to bloom and spread pollen.

3. God created the common ancestry among organisms first noted by Darwin

4. God created the evolutionary process that ultimately resulted in our own human consciousness.

Any faith based belief that requires supernatural magic would fall into the category of creationism.


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 Message 26 by CRR, posted 05-16-2017 8:28 AM CRR has not yet responded

  
Coyote
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Joined: 01-12-2008
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Message 32 of 74 (809126)
05-16-2017 11:34 AM


Creationist Scientific Method
From the Sensuous Curmudgeon:

Creationist Scientific Method:

1. Select a conclusion which you hope is true.
2. Find one piece of evidence that possibly might fit.
3. Ignore all other evidence.
4. That’s it.

https://sensuouscurmudgeon.wordpress.com/...proves-the-flood


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


  
CRR
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Posts: 234
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 33 of 74 (809177)
05-16-2017 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Dr Adequate
05-16-2017 10:15 AM


Re: Creationism whatever some group wants it to be.
Sorry, missing context.
Old Earth, Evolution but 2. God created the genes that tell a flower to bloom and spread pollen.
This message is a reply to:
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Taq
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Posts: 6439
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 34 of 74 (809182)
05-16-2017 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by CRR
05-16-2017 5:09 PM


Re: Creationism whatever some group wants it to be.
CRR writes:

God created the genes that tell a flower to bloom and spread pollen.

That would certainly fit under the title of creationism because it has supernatural magic producing genes.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by CRR, posted 05-16-2017 5:09 PM CRR has not yet responded

  
CRR
Member
Posts: 234
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 35 of 74 (809208)
05-17-2017 5:26 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by New Cat's Eye
05-15-2017 12:14 PM


New Cats Eye,

Perhaps then you are a theistic evolutionist like Ken Miller.
You believe in God. Do you call yourself a Christian? If you do then you can't be a Deist.

Edited by CRR, : Salutation added

Edited by CRR, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-15-2017 12:14 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
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From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 36 of 74 (809242)
05-17-2017 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by CRR
05-17-2017 5:26 AM


Perhaps then you are a theistic evolutionist like Ken Miller.

I don't know who Ken Miller is, nor do I really care about a label, but yeah - I'm a theistic evolutionist.

Do you call yourself a Christian?

Yes, I'm Catholic.

What denomination are you? How long have you been a Christian?

How long have you had a problem with evolution?

You don't really believe that the Earth is young, do you?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by CRR, posted 05-17-2017 5:26 AM CRR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by RAZD, posted 05-17-2017 12:05 PM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply
 Message 44 by CRR, posted 05-18-2017 9:29 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
RAZD
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Posts: 18467
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 37 of 74 (809250)
05-17-2017 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by New Cat's Eye
05-17-2017 11:08 AM


I don't know who Ken Miller is, nor do I really care about a label, but yeah - I'm a theistic evolutionist.

He's a biologist at Brown University (RI), he was at the Dover Trial and he's written a number of papers dealing with creationism. He also is a Catholic.

See http://www.millerandlevine.com/km/evol/DI/AcidTest.html

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-17-2017 11:08 AM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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Davidjay 
Suspended Member
Posts: 755
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 38 of 74 (809311)
05-17-2017 7:07 PM


Creationism states that humans came from humans, evolutionists can not answer this question so slither from bats to tree shrews to semantic classifications, but cant and wont state who are ancestors werre.

They mock when Creationists say we came from humans, whereas they dont know where we came from or who parented us, except way back when just after their BIG BANG, it must have been a one celled amoeba, or similiar.

Then they get upset when we creationists show them their stupidity or lack of logic and science.


Evolutyionists are used to forcing their theory on students and scientists. They are not used to answering any questions on this theory, because it is their religion. And as a religion it must be accepted by faith.... It is not science and it is not logical or rational and has no facts behind it. Evolution is a con and a LIE. A big one, but because it is forced on the gullible and on students, they must accept it. This their modus operandi...and so when faced with sane biological opposition, they can only be subjective rather than objective.

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
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Posts: 18467
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 39 of 74 (809327)
05-17-2017 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Davidjay
05-17-2017 7:07 PM


More lies ... trying to set a record?
Creationism states that humans came from humans, evolutionists can not answer this question so slither from bats to tree shrews to semantic classifications, but cant and wont state who are ancestors werre.

False. Inability to understand information provided does not mean the information was not provided.

They mock when Creationists say we came from humans, whereas they dont know where we came from or who parented us, except way back when just after their BIG BANG, it must have been a one celled amoeba, or similiar.

Also false.

Then they get upset when we creationists show them their stupidity or lack of logic and science.

Sadly, for you, that day has not yet arrived.

You are one of the people making a mockery of creationism.

Counting the posts you make before being banned again?

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Davidjay, posted 05-17-2017 7:07 PM Davidjay has not yet responded

  
Minnemooseus
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Posts: 3501
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
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(1)
Message 40 of 74 (809362)
05-18-2017 12:43 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by RAZD
05-17-2017 12:05 PM


Kenneth R. Miller - Finding Darwin's God
There is a "Kenneth R. Miller - Finding Darwin's God" topic, started back in 2002.

I think the MrHambre's messages there are particularly good.

The quick comment is that Ken Miller is a theist, and is an evolutionist, but is NOT a theistic evolutionist in that he doesn't believe that God guided evolution.

Moose


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PaulK
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Posts: 12687
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 41 of 74 (809363)
05-18-2017 12:53 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Minnemooseus
05-18-2017 12:43 AM


Re: Kenneth R. Miller - Finding Darwin's God
"Theistic evolutionist" seems to have two meanings. Some take it to mean God guiding evolution (which might barely be acceptable in ID) others take it to mean God setting things up at the start but not intervening in the course of evolution. Miller is one of the latter sort.
This message is a reply to:
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Minnemooseus
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Posts: 3501
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 42 of 74 (809364)
05-18-2017 1:08 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by PaulK
05-18-2017 12:53 AM


Re: Kenneth R. Miller - Finding Darwin's God
There is another "Ken Miller", I believe mentioned somewhere in the subtitle topic. That Ken Miller is somehow also tied into the creation/evolution debate, but is not the book author.

Moose


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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15928
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 43 of 74 (809365)
05-18-2017 1:55 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Davidjay
05-17-2017 7:07 PM


Creationism states that humans came from humans, evolutionists can not answer this question so slither from bats to tree shrews to semantic classifications, but cant and wont state who are ancestors werre.

They mock when Creationists say we came from humans, whereas they dont know where we came from or who parented us, except way back when just after their BIG BANG, it must have been a one celled amoeba, or similiar.

You are telling stupid lies again, David.

Whom do you hope to deceive?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Davidjay, posted 05-17-2017 7:07 PM Davidjay has not yet responded

  
CRR
Member
Posts: 234
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 44 of 74 (809382)
05-18-2017 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by New Cat's Eye
05-17-2017 11:08 AM


Ken Miller, biologist and author of "Finding Darwin's God". Of whom Larry Moran said "In this sense, the Francis Collins version of Theistic Evolution is similar to that of Ken Miller in Finding Darwin's God." http://sandwalk.blogspot.com.au/...n-how-does-god-do-it.html

[edit: I note Minnemooseus has a different view and calls KM a theist.]

I'm an Anglican and lapsed atheist. The closest of the Protestant faiths to Catholicism.

I used to believe in evolution. I stated reading Young Earth Creationist literature out of curiosity and after a while I began to realise they had valid arguments. While old earth evolutionists do have some good arguments I also think there are a lot of weaknesses in their position and overall the YEC position holds up well.

If the evolutionists here hope to convince me they will need to lift their game.

Edited by CRR, : edit

Edited by CRR, : No reason given.

Edited by CRR, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-17-2017 11:08 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 46 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-18-2017 10:02 AM CRR has not yet responded
 Message 47 by Tangle, posted 05-18-2017 10:19 AM CRR has not yet responded
 Message 48 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-18-2017 10:20 AM CRR has responded
 Message 49 by Taq, posted 05-18-2017 11:35 AM CRR has not yet responded
 Message 50 by RAZD, posted 05-18-2017 3:58 PM CRR has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member
Posts: 5783
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 45 of 74 (809388)
05-18-2017 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by CRR
05-18-2017 9:29 AM


Dating (again)
While old earth evolutionists do have some good arguments I also think there are a lot of weaknesses in their position and overall the YEC position holds up well.

How do you get around the dating problem?

RAZD has several threads illustrating the correlation among different dating methods, and they all point to an old earth.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by CRR, posted 05-18-2017 9:29 AM CRR has not yet responded

  
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